The QB position

[*bfine32*]

(05-29-2018, 10:27 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Sanu and Jones stats are on the internet aka "oh shit, he was right! I have to actually not post their stats as a rebuttal". Sanu has yet to surpass his 2014 year in ATL in yards or TDs. Jones has yet to pass his TD total in 2013, and only has had an overall better performance once, and it was last year.

I dont have to try and prove your point of Bradys receivers not having a good year away from him. That's your job for your argument. Without stats what you say holds no weight.

Now, where is your proof that Brady has done great without good weapons? I'm still waiting because you haven't listed one year for him. Now try to stay on topic. I know that you want to bring other things up to try to steer the conversation away from that. 

I said there stats on on the internet because people can/will interpret them how they want. For instance you bring up Jones' TDs here yet fail to mention that he has had more yards and yards per catch every year he has left here than he did while he was here. I could also point to Sanu averaging more yards, catches, and TDs since he left here then while he was here. So rest assured it was not an "Oh shit. he was right!" it was the exact opposite.

The proof is that you cannot provide on example of a receiver doing great after he left NE; while I can post numerous who had worse.

Brady won his first Superbowl with Troy Brown as his leading receiver and nobody at TE or RB, so you can stop the never won a Superbowl without good weapons slant. 

Nobody has steered anything away. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-29-2018, 10:39 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I said there stats on on the internet because people can/will interpret them how they want. For instance you bring up Jones' TDs here yet fail to mention that he has had more yards and yards per catch every year he has left here than he did while he was here. I could also point to Sanu averaging more yards, catches, and TDs since he left here then while he was here. So rest assured it was not an "Oh shit. he was right!" it was the exact opposite.

The proof is that you cannot provide on example of a receiver doing great after he left NE; while I can post numerous who had worse.

Brady won his first Superbowl with Troy Brown as his leading receiver and nobody at TE or RB, so you can stop the never won a Superbowl without good weapons slant. 

Nobody has steered anything away. 

I forgot about the SB where Brady won by throwing 145 yards and 1 TD, and his defense getting as many points as Brady put on the board. Oh, and I never said that "Brady never won a SB without weapons". I said that Brady has never had great numbers without good weapons, and I said that Brady has never won a SB without a great defense.

Sanu 2014 (best year) - 790 yards, 14.1 ypa, 5 TDs

Sanu 2017 (best year) - 703 yards, 10.5 ypa, 5 TDs

Oh, Sanu definitely had his career year under Dalton. So you were wrong with Welker and now you're wrong with Sanu. You seem to be wrong about a lot of things you bring up. And I really wish that Jones finished the year with Dalton so he would have had better stats in 2015.

Like I predicted you have STILL yet to provide a year that Brady had great numbers without good weapons around him.

[*bfine32*]

(05-29-2018, 10:50 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: I forgot about the SB where Brady won by throwing 145 yards and 1 TD, and his defense getting as many points as Brady put on the board. Oh, and I never said that "Brady never won a SB without weapons". I said that Brady has never had great numbers without good weapons, and I said that Brady has never won a SB without a great defense.

Sanu 2014 (best year) - 790 yards, 14.1 ypa, 5 TDs

Sanu 2017 (best year) - 703 yards, 10.5 ypa, 5 TDs

Oh, Sanu definitely had his career year under Dalton. So you were wrong with Welker and now you're wrong with Sanu. You seem to be wrong about a lot of things you bring up. And I really wish that Jones finished the year with Dalton so he would have had better stats in 2015.

Like I predicted you have STILL yet to provide a year that Brady had great numbers without good weapons around him.

At least you're persistent if not rational.

You post one year of Sanu's 4 year career here to prove he had a better career here, but scoff at one year when discussing Jones (even though every year has been better). I was not wrong about Welker and I am not and I am not wrong about Sanu. As I said folks can easily see the stats, but I choose not to post them because folks will try to slant them to suit their POV.

In 2005 Tom led the league in passing yards, was 6th in rating, 3rd in TDs, was 2nd team All Pro and first team Pro Bowl while having nothing at the skill positions.

I would throw in the stop it refrain here again but it is too entertaining and perhaps maybe, just maybe a few will see how irrational they look when discussing Andy. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-29-2018, 11:21 PM)bfine32 Wrote: At least you're persistent if not rational.

You post one year of Sanu's 4 year career here to prove he had a better career here, but scoff at one year when discussing Jones (even though every year has been better). I was not wrong about Welker and I am not and I am not wrong about Sanu. As I said folks can easily see the stats, but I choose not to post them because folks will try to slant them to suit their POV.

In 2005 Tom led the league in passing yards, was 6th in rating, 3rd in TDs, was 2nd team All Pro and first team Pro Bowl while having nothing at the skill positions.

I would throw in the stop it refrain here again but it is too entertaining and perhaps maybe, just maybe a few will see how irrational they look when discussing Andy. 

Yes, Sanu has not had a better year under any other QB than he has Dalton. That was my claim and you disputed it. I showed stats and I was right and you were wrong. Marvin Jones first year in Detroit wasn't as good as his 2013 year.

2013 - 713 yards 10 TDs

2016 - 930 yards 4 TDs

I would take 6 TDs over 217 yards every day of the week.

You said "Wes Welker was nothing before or after Brady", which as I proved was wrong. So you were wrong about Welker and Sanu.

Brady did put up great numbers in 2005, but he did have Corey Dillion, one of the best RBs of all time that year too. Deion Branch, Troy Brown, and David Givens were mediocre at best. So he had one year where he looked great without good weapons around him out of him being in the league 17 years.

[*bfine32*]

(05-29-2018, 11:45 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Yes, Sanu has not had a better year under any other QB than he has Dalton. That was my claim and you disputed it. I showed stats and I was right and you were wrong. Marvin Jones first year in Detroit wasn't as good as his 2013 year.

2013 - 713 yards 10 TDs

2016 - 930 yards 4 TDs

I would take 6 TDs over 217 yards every day of the week.

You said "Wes Welker was nothing before or after Brady", which as I proved was wrong. So you were wrong about Welker and Sanu.

Brady did put up great numbers in 2005, but he did have Corey Dillion, one of the best RBs of all time that year too. Deion Branch, Troy Brown, and David Givens were mediocre at best. So he had one year where he looked great without good weapons around him out of him being in the league 17 years.

This is fun.

Mo Sanu average while at Cincy:
448.25 yds/yr, 2.75 TDs/year, 38 catches/yr

Mo Sanu average while at ATL:
678 yds/year, 4.5 TDs/year, 63 catches/yr

Marvin Jones while at Cincy:
432.25 yds/yr, 3.75 TDs/yr, 33.5 catches/yr

Marvin Jones at DET:
1015.5 yds/yr, 6.5 TDs/yr, 58 catches/yr

The "prove me wrong" season for Welker: he went from 118 catches for 1352 yards to 73 catches for 778 yards (aka nothing)

Sure Brady had Dillon in 2005 and he actually played in 12 games (starting in 10) gained 733 yards at 3.5 YPC.

I could find other years, but it would just be something else.

I love it when you post stats and prove me wrong. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 12:01 AM)bfine32 Wrote: This is fun.

Mo Sanu average while at Cincy:
448.25 yds/yr, 2.75 TDs/year, 38 catches/yr

Mo Sanu average while at ATL:
678 yds/year, 4.5 TDs/year, 63 catches/yr

Marvin Jones while at Cincy:
432.25 yds/yr, 3.75 TDs/yr, 33.5 catches/yr

Marvin Jones at DET:
1015.5 yds/yr, 6.5 TDs/yr, 58 catches/yr

Sure Brady had Dillon in 2005 and he actually played in 12 games (starting in 10) gained 733 yards at 3.5 YPC.

I could find other years, but it would just be something else.

I love it when you post stats and prove me wrong.

Yep, I bet you do. Sanu did have his career year with Dalton. Thanks for agreeing with me and finally admitting you were wrong.

All the other years Brady had great stats he had people like Moss, Gronk, Hernadez, Welker, Edelman, ect.

and for your edit - Welker played 13 games the year he had 778 yards, and it was 11th season in the league.

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 12:06 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Yep, I bet you do. Sanu did have his career year with Dalton. Thanks for agreeing with me and finally admitting you were wrong.

All the other years Brady had great stats he had people like Moss, Gronk, Hernadez, Welker, Edelman, ect.

Anyone can look at posts 478 and 479 to see what the original contention of Sanu was. So you can drop that as well as already dropping:

Brady has never put up great numbers without a good supporting staff

MLJ had a better career here than he has in DET.


I have 0 idea what I've admitted to being wrong about, but allow me to through you a bone:

It can be argued that Brandon LaFell has had a better career here than in NE. Take that, cherish it, and use it in situations such as this when you have been proven to be wrong at every turn all the while claiming you have proved someone wrong. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 12:15 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Anyone can look at posts 478 and 479 to see what the original contention of Sanu was. So you can drop that as well as already dropping:

Brady has never put up great numbers without a good supporting staff

MLJ had a better career here than he has in DET.


I have 0 idea what I've admitted to being wrong about, but allow me to through you a bone:

It can be argued that Brandon LaFell has had a better career here than in NE. Take that, cherish it, and use it in situations such as this when you have been proven to be wrong at every turn all the while claiming you have proved someone wrong. 

Sanu has never had a better year than he has had with Dalton, and Jones only has had 1 year better in Detroit than what he had here. That was my point, and that's what is factual. If I said overall or career then I misspoke (or misstyped?), because what I meant was career year. Yeah, Brady has had one year where he put up great stats without good weapons... out of 17 years.

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 12:21 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Sanu has never had a better year than he has had with Dalton, and Jones only has had 1 year better in Detroit than what he had here. That was my point, and that's what is factual. If I said overall or career then I misspoke (or misstyped?), because what I meant was career year. Yeah, Brady has had one year where he put up great stats without good weapons... out of 17 years.

So what is factual is that they both have had better careers elsewhere and it has been shown that Brady had a great season with no talent at the skill positions. You've really got to stop proving me wrong; you'll give me a complex. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 12:27 AM)bfine32 Wrote: So what is factual is that they both have had better careers elsewhere and it has been shown that Brady had a great season with no talent at the skill positions. You've really got to stop proving me wrong; you'll give me a complex. 

Sanu still hasn't had a better year than he had with Dalton. Having a "better career" doesn't mean much when Dalton had them when they were new in the league and not close to as polished as they are now. You know... because players grow and get better over time until their age catches up to them. And wow, Brady had one year of playing great without good weapons out of 17. I was off by 1 year.

[Nicomo Cosca]

What team doesn’t have at least some “good weapons?”

There’s a huge difference between good and great, and he’s only had 2 great weapons (Moss & Gronk). In 17 years...

Trying to take away from Brady to prop up Dalton is beyond silly.

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 12:43 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Sanu still hasn't had a better year than he had with Dalton. Having a "better career" doesn't mean much when Dalton had them when they were new in the league and not close to as polished as they are now. You know... because players grow and get better over time until their age catches up to them. And wow, Brady had one year of playing great without good weapons out of 17. I was off by 1 year.

I've been entertained long enough and I hope onlookers have learned a valuable lesson. FWIW, Brady won an NFL MVP when his leading receiver had just over 800 yards and BJGE was his rushing attack. Save listing Gronk and Hernandez; as they were rookies and unsubstantial (remember players grow and get better over time). 

It's OK to be wrong, just don't double/triple down on it and assert that you've proven someone else wrong. I'm done with this; hopefully it has been educational for the onlookers. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 12:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I've been entertained long enough and I hope onlookers have learned a valuable lesson. FWIW, Brady won an NFL MVP when his leading receiver had just over 800 yards and BJGE was his rushing attack. Save listing Gronk and Hernandez; as they were rookies and unsubstantial (remember players grow and get better over time). 

It's OK to be wrong, just don't double/triple down on it and assert that you've proven someone else wrong. I'm done with this; hopefully it has been educational for the onlookers. 

Yep, because Welker, Gronk, and Hernandez isn't very good... right? Yeah, Gronk and Hernandez were rookies, but that doesn't mean they were bad. Both Gronk and Hernandez have had way better careers than Jones and Sanu. Hell, Gronk had 10 TDs his rookie year.

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 12:58 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: What team doesn’t have at least some “good weapons?”

There’s a huge difference between good and great, and he’s only had 2 great weapons (Moss & Gronk). In 17 years...

Trying to take away from Brady to prop up Dalton is beyond silly.

Brady has had more than 2 great weapons in 17 years. Welker was great, Dillon was one of the best of all time. Hernandez was a really good TE, but I wouldn't consider him great. Brady has rarely had bad weapons in his career.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-30-2018, 12:59 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I've been entertained long enough and I hope onlookers have learned a valuable lesson. FWIW, Brady won an NFL MVP when his leading receiver had just over 800 yards and BJGE was his rushing attack. Save listing Gronk and Hernandez; as they were rookies and unsubstantial (remember players grow and get better over time). 

It's OK to be wrong, just don't double/triple down on it and assert that you've proven someone else wrong. I'm done with this; hopefully it has been educational for the onlookers. 

1. Saying "BJGE was his rushing attack" is a bit misleading. They were 10th in rushing and 9th in YPC that year, regardless of who the name was.

2. Gronk and Hernandez combined for 1109 yards and 16 TDs as rookies. That's 28% of Brady's yards and 44% of his TD's. I wouldn't call that "unsubstantial".

Btw, what's the overall point here? That Brady makes his receivers and Dalton should too? I don't feel like going over the last 3 pages again.

[*bfine32*]

(05-30-2018, 01:16 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Saying "BJGE was his rushing attack" is a bit misleading. They were 10th in rushing and 9th in YPC that year, regardless of who the name was.

2. Gronk and Hernandez combined for 1109 yards and 16 TDs as rookies. That's 28% of Brady's yards and 44% of his TD's. I wouldn't call that "unsubstantial".

Btw, what's the overall point here? That Brady makes his receivers and Dalton should too? I don't feel like going over the last 3 pages again.

1. The point was good players and he had no names at RB

2. Exactly 2 rookie TEs were his receiving threat in an MVP season

Just read the last 3 pages, it really takes less time than it did for you to type that response and give your objective opinion on the issue(s) debated. Or don't. 

[Brownshoe]

(05-30-2018, 01:24 AM)bfine32 Wrote: 1. The point was good players and he had no names at RB

2. Exactly 2 rookie TEs were his receiving threat in an MVP season

Just read the last 3 pages, it really takes less time than it did for you to type that response and give your objective opinion on the issue(s) debated. Or don't. 

Why does two rookies mean anything when one is possibly the best TE ever, and the other one was really good TE?

[CornerBlitz]

This thread is becoming hilarious.

Tom Brady is the greatest QB in the history of the NFL. Stop attempting to discredit his greatness by talking bout how many great weapons he's had in his career. He has proven without a shadow of a doubt that he elevates mediocre wideouts and can carry the team on his back.

How far will the Dalton fans go?!?!

[Socal Bengals fan]

(05-29-2018, 09:35 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Julian Edelman was a college QB at Kent State and a former 7th rd pick.

Wes Welker was nothing before or after Brady

Deion Branch wasted his prim by leaving NE

Brady is also the primary reason Journeymen RBS do well there.


So in short: Stop it, just stop it.

this

[fredtoast]

I don't think anyone is saying that Dalton is as good as Brady. The point is that even Brady's performance is effected by the talent he has around him.

From 2006 to 2007 Brady's passer rating jumped from 87.9 to 117.2 and his passing yards increased by almost 1300 yards. Did Brady really get that much better in one season or did the signing of Randy Moss have something to do with it?

When Gronk missed most of 2013 Dalton had a higher passer rating than Brady. Even now there is a huge difference when Gronk is playing and when he is not.