Hobson Gets Red Pilled

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Watch out for an injury to that talented Dallas Line.

When it happens all will know and PA will be out of a job soon you are correct.

We'll see. Most PA haters claimed no other team would hire him.  So they don't know as much as they think they do

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Once you are in the Playoffs it is up to the coach, not the owner to get the job done.

You know, the guy who is supposed to know how to coach football.

Wrong.  Better talent still wins in the playoffs just like during the regular season.

If players did not matter then the same coach would win the Super Bowl every year and no teams would worry about the draft or free agency.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 01:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We'll see. Most PA haters claimed no other team would hire him.  So they don't know as much as they think they do



Wrong.  Better talent still wins in the playoffs just like during the regular season.

If players did not matter then the same coach would win the Super Bowl every year and no teams would worry about the draft or free agency.

I was surprised Dallas hired PA myself, and they should see why when an injury occurs.

PA needs polished Lineman and he will have them until injury occurs.

Right. The Patriots, never win the Superbowl through coaching lol

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 01:17 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Right. The Patriots, never win the Superbowl through coaching lol

35 different players garnering 86 Pro Bowl selections since 2001 didn't hurt.

Or 17 players earning 27 First Team All Pro selections.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 01:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 35 different players garnering 86 Pro Bowl selections since 2001 didn't hurt.

Or 17 players earning 27 First Team All Pro selections.

Over the same span, how many of those players made pro bowls/all-pro elsewhere? How many total pro-bowls and all-pros elsewhere?

Belichick has really made some players shine that haven't been great on other teams.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 01:32 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 35 different players garnering 86 Pro Bowl selections since 2001 didn't hurt.

Or 17 players earning 27 First Team All Pro selections.

Where were all these players drafted Fred?

Just look at all the early Draft picks the Browns get and they end up failing.

The Patriots take lower Draft picks and coach them up into being good players.

Coaching is where it is. Look for our O-line to really improve under a good coach like Pollack.

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 01:41 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Where were all these players drafted Fred?

Just look at all the early Draft picks the Browns get and they end up failing.

The Patriots take lower Draft picks and coach them up into being good players.

Coaching is where it is. Look for our O-line to really improve under a good coach like Pollack.

But they are the same players in the regular season as they are in the playoffs.

That was the original point, remember?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 01:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But they are the same players in the regular season as they are in the playoffs.

That was the original point, remember?

No, the original point is that coaches coach up players, they don't just magically become great without any coaching.

Patriots > Browns

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 01:52 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: No, the original point is that coaches coach up players, they don't just magically become great without any coaching.

Patriots > Browns

Wrong.  You were trying to claim that talent doesn't matter in the playoffs, remember

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Once you are in the Playoffs it is up to the coach, not the owner to get the job done.

You know, the guy who is supposed to know how to coach football.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 02:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Wrong.  You were trying to claim that talent doesn't matter in the playoffs, remember

How was i claiming that Fred?

I was claiming that in the end coaching is what matters, not just raw talent.

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 02:10 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: How was i claiming that Fred?

I was claiming that in the end coaching is what matters, not just raw talent.

And I pointed out that talent does matter.

Even in the playoffs the most talented teams win more often.  You claimed that in the playoffs coaching is what wins.

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-07-2018, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I pointed out that talent does matter.

Even in the playoffs the most talented teams win more often.  You claimed that in the playoffs coaching is what wins.

Isn't this really about nature vs nurture? Both are true. You need the right talent under the right leadership. Even then, luck and bad calls from the officials still play a role. You can't control for everything. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I pointed out that talent does matter.

Even in the playoffs the most talented teams win more often.  You claimed that in the playoffs coaching is what wins.

Definately have to have both, not claiming that the Eagles or Patriots are not talented.

We have had plenty of talent over the years though that went for naught cause of poor coaching.

(05-07-2018, 02:25 PM)Shady Wrote: Isn't this really about nature vs nurture? Both are true. You need the right talent under the right leadership. Even then, luck and bad calls from the officials still play a role. You can't control for everything. 

Very true Shady.

[fredtoast]

(05-07-2018, 02:56 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: We have had plenty of talent over the years though that went for naught cause of poor coaching.

Actually our coaching staff has been handicapped by the front office refusal to sign any decent free agents.  Our coaches have to work much harder than other coaching staffs because our coaches are being held back by the owner.  The coaches on all these other teams have access to decent free agent vets almost every year to fill holes.  Our coaches don't get that.

The Bengals have outperformed most teams in the league over the last several years despite working with a handicap.  I don't see how you can call that "poor coaching".

As good of a coach as Belichick is I doubt he would have as many rings if the front office did not get him top level players like Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis, Mike Vrabel, and Aquib Talib.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(05-07-2018, 12:58 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Sideline interceptions are what i am talking about under Zampese's coaching, unacceptable.

 Yep......it seemed to be a recurring theme during Zampese's tenure.  The sideline INT is the one that is most prone to being a pick 6.

[Neon Icon]

(05-07-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually our coaching staff has been handicapped by the front office refusal to sign any decent free agents.  Our coaches have to work much harder than other coaching

staffs because our coaches are being held back by the owner.  The coaches on all these other teams have access to decent free agent vets almost every year to fill holes.  Our coaches don't get that.

The Bengals have outperformed most teams in the league over the last several years despite working with a handicap.  I don't see how you can call that "poor coaching".

As good of a coach as Belichick is I doubt he would have as many rings if the front office did not get him top level players like Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis, Mike Vrabel, and Aquib Talib.

I hear ya.

Plus the Pats have more scouts and typically draft well from lower slots. Look last year how they want out and got Cooks too. They signed Gilmore to a huge contract.

I do think there was atleast 1 season where we clearly had more talent than the other team in the playoffs and lost. The San Diego game is the major example. Most of the other games were pick em at best or we were the underdog.

But the nail you hit is that each Bengals playoff team always had some sort of flaw. Whether it was not covering a TE. A bad C. Always something where 1 or 2 free agents would have compensated.

The Steelers seem to always have the edge over the Bengals too. Whether that's because we don't add players in free agency? Or the players are soft because of coaching? Who knows.

But yes, I doubt if Belicheck and Brady are here...if they won a lot of Super Bowls. Maybe Brady never develops.

This team has only had 3 seasons out of 50 with playoff wins. That points to management more than the players and coaches.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-07-2018, 02:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I pointed out that talent does matter.

Even in the playoffs the most talented teams win more often.  You claimed that in the playoffs coaching is what wins.

1. We had the talent to win 10+ games numerous times. We shouldn't be getting embarrassed in the playoffs. I think your argument would hold more water if it looked like we were "a player away". Instead, it's mostly just looked like players who were performing great, suddenly looked awful.

2. I agree that Mike Brown could've done more in the past (this off-season was a solid start), but I don't think this is a primary reason for 0-7. I do think it's a big reason we missed the playoffs in 2007, 08, 16 and 17.

I think Marv is a great roster builder, motivator and overall a solid coach. There's just something to his philosophy that is predictable or too simplistic for the playoffs. I'm speculating there, but I'd say we're way beyond calling it a coincidence anymore. 

Some coaches just can't get it done in the playoffs. Jim Mora and Marty Schottenheimer (who I loved) come to mind. You feel for them, but it is what it is. Maybe Paul Alexander was a big part of it? That's about all we can hope for at this point. It's not like our lines didn't fall off. We'll see.

[Neon Icon]

(05-08-2018, 02:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. We had the talent to win 10+ games numerous times. We shouldn't be getting embarrassed in the playoffs. I think your argument would hold more water if it looked like we were "a player away". Instead, it's mostly just looked like players who were performing great, suddenly looked awful.

2. I agree that Mike Brown could've done more in the past (this off-season was a solid start), but I don't think this is a primary reason for 0-7. I do think it's a big reason we missed the playoffs in 2007, 08, 16 and 17.

I think Marv is a great roster builder, motivator and overall a solid coach. There's just something to his philosophy that is predictable or too simplistic for the playoffs. I'm speculating there, but I'd say we're way beyond calling it a coincidence anymore. 

Some coaches just can't get it done in the playoffs. Jim Mora and Marty Schottenheimer (who I loved) come to mind. You feel for them, but it is what it is. Maybe Paul Alexander was a big part of it? That's about all we can hope for at this point. It's not like our lines didn't fall off. We'll see.

Then occasionally you get the 7-9 or 8-8 team that wins a playoff game. Whatever the reason, not winning in 7 tries is pretty improbably for this organization and signals some issues.

Had the Eagles stayed the course, does anyone think they win the SB last year? Yeah they got a new coach, but in 2015 they also shook up their scouting dept:

http://6abc.com/sports/sources-eagles-fire-three-scouting-executives-in-front-office-shake-up/695522/

Fired VP of Player Personnel in 2014:
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/31/eagles-fire-v-p-of-player-personnel-tom-gamble/

Essentially fired GM in 2015:
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/eagles/20150109_The_rise_and_fall_of_Howie_Roseman_as_Eagles_GM.html

Then, they brought in a great, younger coaching staff that was fairly innovative and won the SB with a backup QB.

[sandwedge]

(05-08-2018, 02:00 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. We had the talent to win 10+ games numerous times. We shouldn't be getting embarrassed in the playoffs. I think your argument would hold more water if it looked like we were "a player away". Instead, it's mostly just looked like players who were performing great, suddenly looked awful.

2. I agree that Mike Brown could've done more in the past (this off-season was a solid start), but I don't think this is a primary reason for 0-7. I do think it's a big reason we missed the playoffs in 2007, 08, 16 and 17.

I think Marv is a great roster builder, motivator and overall a solid coach. There's just something to his philosophy that is predictable or too simplistic for the playoffs. I'm speculating there, but I'd say we're way beyond calling it a coincidence anymore. 

Some coaches just can't get it done in the playoffs. Jim Mora and Marty Schottenheimer (who I loved) come to mind. You feel for them, but it is what it is. Maybe Paul Alexander was a big part of it? That's about all we can hope for at this point. It's not like our lines didn't fall off. We'll see.

I agree on the ML thing. I have said more than couple of times on here, that we didn't look the same when it came to the playoffs.  Most of the time it seemed like there was no energy, flat looking. Hopeful that all changes this year!

[BURROWorBUST]

More notes on how much Pollack has already done to upgrade our mindset along the Oline. Music to our ears.

Quote:Although Lazor has built a different offense than the one that gave him 13 touchdown catches that season, Eifert doesn’t see an enormous difference. Except for how the plays are called and that the running game is different with the same plays blocked with different technique.

But Eifert sees what everybody else sees and probably better. Pollack has changed the culture up front and since Eifert’s brother-in-law is Cowboys guard Zack Martin with three Pro Bowls under Pollack in Dallas, he had a sneak preview.

“(Martin is) a big fan,” Eifert said. “With his success in Dallas you can see he knows what he’s talking about. He brings an energy. He’s hard-nosed, he’s got a gritty attitude. That’s what he passes on to the players. He’s tough on the guys, but the guys respect him.”

Unlike PA.

That’s exactly what Lewis sought as he attempted to re-build a unit that yielded the worst rushing season in franchise history. There had been whispers from among even their own coaches the previous two seasons that the line had been “soft,” the kiss of death for any line.


PA = https://mistersoftee.com/sites/default/files/2874307160_6d550d88ba.jpg

But Pollack, who started six games during eight seasons with the 49ers, is anything but.

“We’re not here playing chess, I know that,” Pollack said after practice. “The last time I checked its football and you have to kick the guy’s ass who’s across from you. Nothing’s changed … I don’t care what we do with the rules … at the end of the day it’s a physical, violent game and you have to be mentally tough. I can get a lot of drunk fraternity guys to start fights, but that’s not football, that’s mentally weak.”

Lewis is seeing why he and Lazor didn’t want Pollack getting out of the building back in January when he came in for an interview.

“He’s a very aggressive, physical person,” Lewis said. “He’s an excellent teacher, He’s very detailed. Every single step, every single movement has been broken down piece, piece, piece, piece, piece, piece.”

[JWW1971]

Sounds like we will finally be able to get our running game going with Pollock sorting the O-Line