Hobson Gets Red Pilled

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-07-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually our coaching staff has been handicapped by the front office refusal to sign any decent free agents.  Our coaches have to work much harder than other coaching staffs because our coaches are being held back by the owner.  The coaches on all these other teams have access to decent free agent vets almost every year to fill holes.  Our coaches don't get that.

The Bengals have outperformed most teams in the league over the last several years despite working with a handicap.  I don't see how you can call that "poor coaching".

As good of a coach as Belichick is I doubt he would have as many rings if the front office did not get him top level players like Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis, Mike Vrabel, and Aquib Talib.

It is both poor coaching and the owner's refusal to sign decent FA's.

It is both that has held this team back from getting over that Playoff hump is all i am saying.

This Offseason has been different that the FO signed decent FA's in their prime, trading for Glenn, adding Preston
Brown and Chris Baker. Then topping it off with a very good Draft and finally adding a stud Center. Now that we
have a very good aggressive in your face O-line coach and an innovative OC i believe we can get over that Playoff
hump.

(05-23-2018, 04:41 AM)Shady Wrote: More notes on how much Pollack has already done to upgrade our mindset along the Oline.  Music to our ears.

So refreshing. My favorite addition this Offseason has to be Pollack. :andy:

[3wt]

(05-07-2018, 03:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually our coaching staff has been handicapped by the front office refusal to sign any decent free agents.  Our coaches have to work much harder than other coaching staffs because our coaches are being held back by the owner.  The coaches on all these other teams have access to decent free agent vets almost every year to fill holes.  Our coaches don't get that.

The Bengals have outperformed most teams in the league over the last several years despite working with a handicap.  I don't see how you can call that "poor coaching".

As good of a coach as Belichick is I doubt he would have as many rings if the front office did not get him top level players like Corey Dillon, Randy Moss, Darrelle Revis, Mike Vrabel, and Aquib Talib.

I think you're right about the negative impact of the front office on the efficacy of the head coach.   Hard to know what exactly goes on behind the veil, but the party line has always been that the bottom line decisions have always been Mr. Brown's.

The sense I have looking at the big picture over the years and in the Lewis era is that the more leeway Marvin has been given the more successful a team he has fielded.  He appeared to have a pretty free reign in the beginning of his tenure and he was pretty aggressive finding some effective free agents (Thornton, O'neal, James, Hardy, Kelly, Graham, etc)

But I think those were mainly to jump start one of the NFLs worst teams.

I think Marvin has been hamstrung more than we know, and that Marvin's conditional two year contract depended on his freedom to hire the coaches and free agents he wanted.

The over arching problem with the Bengals franchise since Mike Brown took over has been, well, Mike Brown.   I think he's a fine intelligent man who wants to win and knows football.   But for whatever the reason he has a history of making really poor personnel decisions - regarding both players and coaches - and has handicapped our team as a result.  

I think the two big (family) issues have been control and vision.  The obsession with the former and the lack of the latter.  Take New England and Pittsburgh:  You see Kraft willing (except for the Brady/ Garapolo debacle) to give control to his coach.  You see Rooney as having the vision to guide his team into a new era - and being willing to listen to others, even members of the press to the point that he was willing to change his whole paradigm of personnel development.

I'm hoping Mr. Brown's willingness to grant Marvin more autonomy results in significant success.  So far I like what I see (other than a few of the draft picks )

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-23-2018, 02:46 PM)3wt Wrote: I think you're right about the negative impact of the front office on the efficacy of the head coach.   Hard to know what exactly goes on behind the veil, but the party line has always been that the bottom line decisions have always been Mr. Brown's.

The sense I have looking at the big picture over the years and in the Lewis era is that the more leeway Marvin has been given the more successful a team he has fielded.  He appeared to have a pretty free reign in the beginning of his tenure and he was pretty aggressive finding some effective free agents (Thornton, O'neal, James, Hardy, Kelly, Graham, etc)

But I think those were mainly to jump start one of the NFLs worst teams.

I think Marvin has been hamstrung more than we know, and that Marvin's conditional two year contract depended on his freedom to hire the coaches and free agents he wanted.

The over arching problem with the Bengals franchise since Mike Brown took over has been, well, Mike Brown.   I think he's a fine intelligent man who wants to win and knows football.   But for whatever the reason he has a history of making really poor personnel decisions - regarding both players and coaches - and has handicapped our team as a result.  

I think the two big (family) issues have been control and vision.  The obsession with the former and the lack of the latter.  Take New England and Pittsburgh:  You see Kraft willing (except for the Brady/ Garapolo debacle) to give control to his coach.  You see Rooney as having the vision to guide his team into a new era - and being willing to listen to others, even members of the press to the point that he was willing to change his whole paradigm of personnel development.

I'm hoping Mr. Brown's willingness to grant Marvin more autonomy results in significant success.  So far I like what I see (other than a few of the draft picks )

Agree with all of this, Marv has been handcuffed by MB in the past. But it is not a coincidence that nearly everytime
Marv's teams get into the Playoffs they fall apart. This is on Marvin, not Mikey. What is nice is Marv does not seem to
be getting handcuffed this Offseason and we have made lots of significant moves that could carry us to the promised
land. We will see but Lazor, Austin and especially Pollack all have been saying and doing the right things.

[BURROWorBUST]

(05-23-2018, 02:46 PM)3wt Wrote: I think you're right about the negative impact of the front office on the efficacy of the head coach.   Hard to know what exactly goes on behind the veil, but the party line has always been that the bottom line decisions have always been Mr. Brown's.

The sense I have looking at the big picture over the years and in the Lewis era is that the more leeway Marvin has been given the more successful a team he has fielded.  He appeared to have a pretty free reign in the beginning of his tenure and he was pretty aggressive finding some effective free agents (Thornton, O'neal, James, Hardy, Kelly, Graham, etc)

But I think those were mainly to jump start one of the NFLs worst teams.

I think Marvin has been hamstrung more than we know, and that Marvin's conditional two year contract depended on his freedom to hire the coaches and free agents he wanted.

The over arching problem with the Bengals franchise since Mike Brown took over has been, well, Mike Brown.   I think he's a fine intelligent man who wants to win and knows football.   But for whatever the reason he has a history of making really poor personnel decisions - regarding both players and coaches - and has handicapped our team as a result.  

I think the two big (family) issues have been control and vision.  The obsession with the former and the lack of the latter.  Take New England and Pittsburgh:  You see Kraft willing (except for the Brady/ Garapolo debacle) to give control to his coach.  You see Rooney as having the vision to guide his team into a new era - and being willing to listen to others, even members of the press to the point that he was willing to change his whole paradigm of personnel development.

I'm hoping Mr. Brown's willingness to grant Marvin more autonomy results in significant success.  So far I like what I see (other than a few of the draft picks )

Well said. I think that's a fair assessment. I've always wanted to like Mike Brown. I think he's always been honest with the city of Cincinnati about the costs of keeping an NFL franchise in the city.  It's easy to understand why St Louis can't keep a football team. The city doesn't have that kind of money. Cincinnati does (for now), but who knows when that can change? (Please note that the only cities with NFL teams are the only ones rich enough to pay for them.)

We recognize this as a huge public waste, and we gripe about it. We fall into a total disavowal of this reality, that this is what it takes to have an NFL franchise come to your city. And that's what teams are – franchises. In many ways it follows a Clintonian model where it's "pay to play." 

So, I don't hate Mike Brown any more or less than I do any other NFL owner. But I do hate him (not really) for the reasons you mentioned, especially the poor personnel decisions. Isn't that what drove CP9 to retire?

Otherwise, he seems like a really nice person. He does have compassion for players who've had problems elsewhere, and he's very loyal. 

[HarleyDog]

(05-23-2018, 02:46 PM)3wt Wrote: I think you're right about the negative impact of the front office on the efficacy of the head coach.   Hard to know what exactly goes on behind the veil, but the party line has always been that the bottom line decisions have always been Mr. Brown's.

I'm hoping Mr. Brown's willingness to grant Marvin more autonomy results in significant success.  So far I like what I see (other than a few of the draft picks )

MB is not football intelligent. The smarts he does have is outdated. We’ve had these theories and discussions for years now regarding his involvement with the organization in hopes he is releasing his reigns. Yet, with everything going on this year and all the changes that have taken place, I’m moderately excited we may be witnessing what most of us hoped for so long. It will be nice not having the decisions made from a relic who seemingly determines his actions with a few shakes of the magic 8-Ball.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-24-2018, 07:40 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: MB is not football intelligent. The smarts he does have is outdated. We’ve had these theories and discussions for years now regarding his involvement with the organization in hopes he is releasing his reigns. Yet, with everything going on this year and all the changes that have taken place, I’m moderately excited we may be witnessing what most of us hoped for so long. It will be nice not having the decisions made from a relic who seemingly determines his actions with a few shakes of the magic 8-Ball.

Lol, all true, just happy it really seems that Mikey has finally taken a back seat and is just letting Marv and
the rest of the coaches do their jobs. I think we will see a lot more success this way. Always hard to evaluate
coaches if they are being handcuffed by the owner.

Sometimes it doesn't even matter if the owner knows football, it messes with the coaches.

What is funny is it seemed PA had control over his room and his players but still ended up failing.

[3wt]

(05-24-2018, 12:12 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Lol, all true, just happy it really seems that Mikey has finally taken a back seat and is just letting Marv and
the rest of the coaches do their jobs. I think we will see a lot more success this way. Always hard to evaluate
coaches if they are being handcuffed by the owner.

Sometimes it doesn't even matter if the owner knows football, it messes with the coaches.

What is funny is it seemed PA had control over his room and his players but still ended up failing.

I'm still trying to figure out the whole PA thing.  I mean he has been almost universally admired around the league, and Dallas wasted no time scarfing him up.  

My take is that he's really pretty brilliant, but he believes his own press and stubbornly resists any ideas that are not his.  What I've seen of his quotes makes me believe is that he's an intelligent man but an arrogant fool.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-24-2018, 05:05 PM)3wt Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out the whole PA thing.  I mean he has been almost universally admired around the league, and Dallas wasted no time scarfing him up.  

My take is that he's really pretty brilliant, but he believes his own press and stubbornly resists any ideas that are not his.  What I've seen of his quotes makes me believe is that he's an intelligent man but an arrogant fool.

I mean, he used to maybe be pretty brilliant but i think the game has passed him by and yeah, he is arrogant.

With Pollack he seems to respect his guys but push them and let the best man win. Much more in your face but
he is a newer mind with newer ideas and actually played at the professional level. Loving the upgrade.

[Vas Deferens]

(05-24-2018, 05:05 PM)3wt Wrote: I'm still trying to figure out the whole PA thing.  I mean he has been almost universally admired around the league, and Dallas wasted no time scarfing him up.  

My take is that he's really pretty brilliant, but he believes his own press and stubbornly resists any ideas that are not his.  What I've seen of his quotes makes me believe is that he's an intelligent man but an arrogant fool.

a culture that lacks any sign of accountability will naturally spread apathy throughout the organization.

what do mikey, kaite, and the rest of that habsburg spawn have in common?  a complete lack of accountability.  their only physical blemish lies in their palm from having everything handed to them their entire lives.  

people like this cannot run successful organizations and PA may have been a casualty of their ineptitude. 


or he could have been putting in too many hours at the dueling piano bar.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-24-2018, 06:15 PM)Vas Deferens Wrote: a culture that lacks any sign of accountability will naturally spread apathy throughout the organization.

what do mikey, kaite, and the rest of that habsburg spawn have in common?  a complete lack of accountability.  their only physical blemish lies in their palm from having everything handed to them their entire lives.  

people like this cannot run successful organizations and PA may have been a casualty of their ineptitude. 


or he could have been putting in too many hours at the dueling piano bar.

You have some points.

Just happy we have an O-line coach in Pollack that has had to work to get where he is.

Same with Lazor and Austin. Very hard workers.