Cornerback "defeats"

[fredtoast]

"defeats" is a stat compiled by footballoutsiders.

A defender is credited with a defeat any time he makes one of the following plays:
1.  A tackle that results in a loss of yardage, including sacks.
2.  Any play that results in a turnover, including tipped passes which are then intercepted.
3.  Any tackle or tipped pass that leads to a stop on third or fourth down. 




Among CBs in 2017 Dre Kirkpatrick ranked 10th in total defeats (17) and 9th in passing defeats (15).  Another solid season by the most underrated player on the team.  Jalen Ramsey was #1 with 23 total defeats and also #1 with 21 passing defeats.  They have not put out the complete numbers on all players so I don't know how the other Bengal CBs did.

[SunsetBengal]

I trust that stat, as Dre Kirk is a boom or bust type of player. Good thing that our new DC emphasizes Safeties, as a gambler like Dre needs a good man having his back.

[motoarch]

But how many times was he defeated?

Not for nothing but this stat is useless without context.

I throw at your #1 corner 4 times because I’m afraid of him, he gets a defeat on all 4 attempts.

I throw at your #2 guy cause I have a good match up 12 times and he gets 5 defeats but I torch him twice for big gains or tds and the other 5 connections are good for first down or atleast reasonably good yardage.

Is your #2 guy really all that good? Just cause he had more defeats?

[fredtoast]

(07-11-2018, 09:25 PM)motoarch Wrote: But how many times was he defeated?

Not for nothing but this stat is useless without context.

I throw at your #1 corner 4 times because I’m afraid of him, he gets a defeat on all 4 attempts.

I throw at your #2 guy cause I have a good match up 12 times and he gets 5 defeats but I torch him twice for big gains or tds and the other 5 connections are good for first down or atleast reasonably good yardage.

Is your #2 guy really all that good? Just cause he had more defeats?

I will post all of the other coverage stats as soon as they are available.

[*Go Cards*]

He is not as bad as some make him out to be and he seems to be getting better.  

Now with WJIII stepping to forefront it allows Dre to cover lesser WR's.

But the problem is he is not worth the money he is paid and that attracts harsh criticism.

[CornerBlitz]

(07-11-2018, 09:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  Another solid season by the most underrated player on the team. 

Whatevs you been smoking on, please pass it to the right hand side. 

[CornerBlitz]

(07-12-2018, 01:12 AM)Go Cards Wrote: He is not as bad as some make him out to be and he seems to be getting better.  

Now with WJIII stepping to forefront it allows Dre to cover lesser WR's.

But the problem is he is not worth the money he is paid and that attracts harsh criticism.

PFF had him ranked as the 91st best CB. His rating was 56.4 which is considered poor. Dre had  tough year last year, not sure why people are attempting to say he played solid. 

[*SHRacerX*]

(07-11-2018, 09:25 PM)motoarch Wrote: But how many times was he defeated?

Not for nothing but this stat is useless without context.

I throw at your #1 corner 4 times because I’m afraid of him, he gets a defeat on all 4 attempts.

I throw at your #2 guy cause I have a good match up 12 times and he gets 5 defeats but I torch him twice for big gains or tds and the other 5 connections are good for first down or atleast reasonably good yardage.

Is your #2 guy really all that good? Just cause he had more defeats?

My thoughts exactly.  As soon as I saw it, all I could think is how often Dre is targeted.  The tackles for loss/turnovers can't be very high, and I also wonder how many stops he had on 3rd or 4th down.  I will say this for Dre:  He does seem to play his best in big games and big moments.  He isn't strong enough to rip the ball out of guys, but he is often in the right position.  I think his biggest issue is consistency.  He seems to take a lot of plays off where he thinks he either won't be targeted or just isn't as intense as he needs to be.  I'm hoping the new competition brings out the best in him.  

[HarleyDog]

(07-12-2018, 01:12 AM)Go Cards Wrote: But the problem is he is not worth the money he is paid and that attracts harsh criticism.

Exactly

(07-12-2018, 06:52 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: My thoughts exactly.  As soon as I saw it, all I could think is how often Dre is targeted.  The tackles for loss/turnovers can't be very high, and I also wonder how many stops he had on 3rd or 4th down.  I will say this for Dre:  He does seem to play his best in big games and big moments.  He isn't strong enough to rip the ball out of guys, but he is often in the right position.  I think his biggest issue is consistency.  He seems to take a lot of plays off where he thinks he either won't be targeted or just isn't as intense as he needs to be.  I'm hoping the new competition brings out the best in him.  

Correct. Consistency is a huge downfall. Also his flamboyance. He doesn’t seem to mature and play smarter and often makes the same mistakes over and over again. When the game is on the line, you can expect a huge penalty from him which destroys what positives he’s achieved during the game.

[motoarch]

I want to like him because when he comes up big he comes up real big. It seems like he’s always going for the big play though and rarely plays it safe. When he does this he gets burned bad. If he could temper that and learn when to hit a homerun and when to take a pitch he might be a really great player. I feel like the potential is there.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(07-12-2018, 07:22 AM)HarleyDog Wrote: Exactly


Correct. Consistency is a huge downfall. Also his flamboyance. He doesn’t seem to mature and play smarter and often makes the same mistakes over and over again. When the game is on the line, you can expect a huge penalty from him which destroys what positives he’s achieved during the game.

Sorry, Mike, but that's completely and utterly false.

He has literally done that once or twice, in 80 career games.

I'll agree that consistency seems to be his issue, but losses aren't singlehandedly on his hands.

(07-12-2018, 01:34 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: PFF had him ranked as the 91st best CB. His rating was 56.4 which is considered poor. Dre had  tough year last year, not sure why people are attempting to say he played solid. 

Good for them.

PFF is still a terrible site at this stage of the game.

Funny, before they blew up and became a part of NFL broadcasts and the like (when they actually had great numbers and a great site), nobody paid them any attention and blew them off as biased or inaccurate.

Now that the LATTER is true and that they have blown up, people treat them like gospel.

SMH all day long.

Anyways, Dre didn't have nearly as bad a year last year as people are making it out to be (as usual). For every two bad plays, he has 5 good/great ones.

[Gohards]

I believe it. As much as I give Dre a tough go, I still think he is a solid starting CB in the nfl. Hes no WJIII though.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-12-2018, 06:52 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: My thoughts exactly.  As soon as I saw it, all I could think is how often Dre is targeted.  The tackles for loss/turnovers can't be very high, and I also wonder how many stops he had on 3rd or 4th down.  I will say this for Dre:  He does seem to play his best in big games and big moments.  He isn't strong enough to rip the ball out of guys, but he is often in the right position.  I think his biggest issue is consistency.  He seems to take a lot of plays off where he thinks he either won't be targeted or just isn't as intense as he needs to be.  I'm hoping the new competition brings out the best in him.  

I'll 2nd that

Every CB gets burned on occasion I don't care who you name, the top 10 of all time. They're facing some pretty good athletes ya know.

Dre will look like an all world CB for two or three series, pass defended and all over a receiver. Then the next couple series he looks like a rookie in his first games. Whether he takes plays off, guesses wrong and commits to far, is in the wrong coverage or others are I dunno ?

Then you throw in the penalties and he starts hurting the team more than he should.

He's not as bad as some say but at times, sometimes many of them, his results are bad a bit more than they should be.

[Tiger Teeth]

The bottom line is, Dre is probably going to start. Even though he is inconsistent, he's what we have. If he can only cut down on the bonehead plays, and the penalties, he's not ALL that bad. Sometimes.

[fredtoast]

(07-12-2018, 01:34 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: PFF had him ranked as the 91st best CB. His rating was 56.4 which is considered poor. Dre had  tough year last year, not sure why people are attempting to say he played solid. 

The individual rankings on PFF are a joke.

They had Dre ranked 112th behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played in 2015 when Dre play 97% of the snaps on a top 3 pass defense and ranked in the top 30 in almost every objective individual pass defense metric like "yards per target", "success rate", and "completion percentage allowed".

Don't know where PFF had him ranked in 2016 but Dre was even better ranking 8th in the league among CBs in "Yards per target".

So many people here called Dre a bust his first two seasons that they refuse to acknowledge that he is now a very good CB.

[TheUberHuber]

(07-12-2018, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The individual rankings on PFF are a joke.

They had Dre ranked 112th behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played in 2015 when Dre play 97% of the snaps on a top 3 pass defense and ranked in the top 30 in almost every objective individual pass defense metric like "yards per target", "success rate", and "completion percentage allowed".

Don't know where PFF had him ranked in 2016 but Dre was even better ranking 8th in the league among CBs in "Yards per target".

So many people here called Dre a bust his first two seasons that they refuse to acknowledge that he is now a very good CB.

That is your opinion and is not a fact. The joke is you assumimg your opinion is fact.

[Hoofhearted]

(07-12-2018, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The individual rankings on PFF are a joke.

They had Dre ranked 112th behind a bunch of scrubs who barely played in 2015 when Dre play 97% of the snaps on a top 3 pass defense and ranked in the top 30 in almost every objective individual pass defense metric like "yards per target", "success rate", and "completion percentage allowed".

Don't know where PFF had him ranked in 2016 but Dre was even better ranking 8th in the league among CBs in "Yards per target".

So many people here called Dre a bust his first two seasons that they refuse to acknowledge that he is now a very good CB.

This was from 2016. Not sure of the exact rankings, but they gave him some love in a few categories.

Quote:GO ROUTE

In backyard football terms, go deep. The go route is designed to get behind the defense for the big play. The ability to take the top off the defense is a key component to any successful offensive attack. The go route is designed both for big yards before the catch and to give the receiver the ability to take it the distance after the catch. For this to work, the line must allow time for receivers to work their way down field. QBs will typical have a five- to seven-step dropback, and the aDOT of these routes is 28.53 yards.


Best CB defending the go route in 2016 (min. six targeted routes); Dre Kirkpatrick, Bengals
Dre Kirkpatrick defended the go route as well as one can possibly do it in 2016. He was targeted nine times on such routes without allowing a catch, and he intercepted two passes (tied for most in NFL). He had the lowest QB rating against, with a 0.0, 39.6 points lower than if a QB just threw an incomplete pass every time. Kirkpatrick was used in multiple coverages when stopping the go route: five times he was in man coverage, either cover-1 or cover-2 man, and four times in zone, twice in cover-6, once in cover-4, and once in cover-3. Both of Kirkpatrick’s interceptions came in zone coverage, while in man he broke up one of five passes with another being incomplete due to an underthrow.

[Sweetness]

(07-12-2018, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So many people here called Dre a bust his first two seasons that they refuse to acknowledge that he is now a very good CB.

If you think he is a "very good" cb then you're just as wacked out as the people who still think he's a complete bust. 

[BengalD]

(07-11-2018, 09:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "defeats" is a stat compiled by footballoutsiders.

A defender is credited with a defeat any time he makes one of the following plays:
1.  A tackle that results in a loss of yardage, including sacks.
2.  Any play that results in a turnover, including tipped passes which are then intercepted.
3.  Any tackle or tipped pass that leads to a stop on third or fourth down. 




Among CBs in 2017 Dre Kirkpatrick ranked 10th in total defeats (17) and 9th in passing defeats (15).  Another solid season by the most underrated player on the team.  Jalen Ramsey was #1 with 23 total defeats and also #1 with 21 passing defeats.  They have not put out the complete numbers on all players so I don't know how the other Bengal CBs did.

I believe there are a lot of underrated players on that defense based on the amount of time they were on the field.

[HarleyDog]

(07-12-2018, 09:10 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Sorry, Mike, but that's completely and utterly false.

He has literally done that once or twice, in 80 career games.

I'll agree that consistency seems to be his issue, but losses aren't singlehandedly on his hands.

No loss is completely on anyone's hands respectively. There are occasions when the finger can be pointed strongly in ones direction.