Tier 3 QB

[*bfine32*]

(08-19-2018, 02:11 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Sorry, you seemed to be implying that a certain QB was holding AJ back. So I just have to wonder why an inferior WR didn't have the same issue.

Nah, I was just trying to find out what was different in AJ's best playoff game. If I wanted to bring WRs  from other teams into the equation then I'd ask why did Mo Sanu average about 20 yards (0 TDs) per game in the playoffs while he was here yet, he's averaged over 120 yards (2 TDs) per playoff game since he's left.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-19-2018, 02:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, I was just trying to find out what was different in AJ's best playoff game. If I wanted to bring WRs  from other teams into the equation then I'd ask why did Mo Sanu average about 20 yards (0 TDs) per game in the playoffs while he was here yet, he's averaged over 120 yards (2 TDs) per playoff game since he's left.

I guess I'd make the zany assertion that QBs have an easier time throwing at the guy who is getting open.

[Brownshoe]

(08-19-2018, 02:33 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Nah, I was just trying to find out what was different in AJ's best playoff game. If I wanted to bring WRs  from other teams into the equation then I'd ask why did Mo Sanu average about 20 yards (0 TDs) per game in the playoffs while he was here yet, he's averaged over 120 yards (2 TDs) per playoff game since he's left.

He definitely would have had a decent amount more yards and a TD if he wouldn't have dropped that TD pass against the chargers. Maybe it was just because he played better 

[*bfine32*]

(08-19-2018, 03:51 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: He definitely would have had a decent amount more yards and a TD if he wouldn't have dropped that TD pass against the chargers. Maybe it was just because he played better 

Was that the underthrown ball that allowed the DB to get back into the play? But we can roll with the only difference is "he played better" seems folks cannot come up with anything else.

[CornerBlitz]

I will just repeat myself.....but if people cannot even acknowledge that Andy Dalton is one of the worst starting QBs in playoff history then there really isn't any point in having objective conversations about him.

[*bfine32*]

(08-19-2018, 03:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I guess I'd make the zany assertion that QBs have an easier time throwing at the guy who is getting open.

Yep that is zany as we're talking about the same just on a different team. So it could be something other than the receiver. Could be the jersey. 

[Shake n Blake]

(08-19-2018, 07:56 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Yep that is zany as we're talking about the same just on a different team. So it could be something other than the receiver. Could be the jersey. 

I guess I'd make another zany assertion that different receivers have varying degrees of success getting open, depending on coverage and quality of players covering them from game to game. Also depends on the game plan. I realize that acknowledging this obvious reality throws a huge monkey wrench in this overly simple argument though.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-19-2018, 07:37 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I will just repeat myself.....but if people cannot even acknowledge that Andy Dalton is one of the worst starting QBs in playoff history then there really isn't any point in having objective conversations about him.

Who said Dalton hasn't been terrible in the playoffs? I just don't like to pin the failures of others on him. Dalton has been blamed for everything from AJ disappearing to the defense getting shredded. Maybe we should all finally acknowledge that this team has a playoff problem...as evidenced by their 0-3 record sans Dalton. (All with the same issues each and every time). Could it be the coach? Nah.

[fredtoast]

(08-18-2018, 05:31 PM)bfine32 Wrote: That's an interest theory but it really doesn't make much sense. "He had his best game because he was targeted less". Also only 1 fewer targets than that 34 yard performance against SD, with pretty much the exact same receiving corps. So targets cannot be it. 

It doesn't make sense because you aren't really grasping it.

I am not saying that he would get more yards just by being targeted less.  What I was saying was that defenses could not just lock down on AJ. He had a little more freedom to operate because the targets were being spread around to other good receivers like Sanu, Jones, and Eifert.

BTW Greens numbers against the Steelers were even more impressive when you consider he had McCarron at QB instead of Dalton.  McCarrone was a good backup, but watching what both of them did with the exact same players it was clear McCarron (97.1 rate, 208 yards per start) was not in Dalton's class (106.2 rating, 266 yards per start).

Over the first 12 games of 2015 with Dalton playing full time Green averaged 86.4 receiving yards per game.

Over the last 4 games McCarron threw to AJ for 60.8 yards per game.

Imagine the numbers Green would have put up if Dalton had been at QB instead of McCarron.

[*bfine32*]

(08-19-2018, 09:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I guess I'd make another zany assertion that different receivers have varying degrees of success getting open, depending on coverage and quality of players covering them from game to game. Also depends on the game plan. I realize that acknowledging this obvious reality throws a huge monkey wrench in this overly simple argument though.

Monkey wrench aside; It's not different receivers. It's the exact same receiver. That's obvious reality. 

[*bfine32*]

(08-19-2018, 11:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It doesn't make sense because you aren't really grasping it.

I am not saying that he would get more yards just by being targeted less.  What I was saying was that defenses could not just lock down on AJ. He had a little more freedom to operate because the targets were being spread around to other good receivers like Sanu, Jones, and Eifert.

BTW Greens numbers against the Steelers were even more impressive when you consider he had McCarron at QB instead of Dalton.  McCarrone was a good backup, but watching what both of them did with the exact same players it was clear McCarron (97.1 rate, 208 yards per start) was not in Dalton's class (106.2 rating, 266 yards per start).

Over the first 12 games of 2015 with Dalton playing full time Green averaged 86.4 receiving yards per game.

Over the last 4 games McCarron threw to AJ for 60.8 yards per game.

Imagine the numbers Green would have put up if Dalton had been at QB instead of McCarron.

What does McCarron have to do with it? You're not telling me that's the difference in AJ's best playoff game are you?

Damn it!! You are right; that's what was different, don't we feel silly. 

I don't have to imagine the numbers AJ would put up in the playoffs with Andy; I've seen them. 

[CornerBlitz]

(08-19-2018, 09:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Who said Dalton hasn't been terrible in the playoffs? I just don't like to pin the failures of others on him. Dalton has been blamed for everything from AJ disappearing to the defense getting shredded. Maybe we should all finally acknowledge that this team has a playoff problem...as evidenced by their 0-3 record sans Dalton. (All with the same issues each and every time). Could it be the coach? Nah.

I haven't heard anyone since I posted in this thread admit that Dalton has been a complete and utter bum in the playoffs.  As far as blaming the coach, I'm right with ya. I blame Marvin for our inferior performances in the playoffs but I don't give Dalton a free pass.

I'm one of the rare fellas that blame the QB and the Coach. Why? It's simple, I believe QB play and coaching are the two biggest factors in determining whether a team is successful in the NFL playoffs and both have been highly inferior. I don't see why the coach sucking and the QB sucking are mutually exclusive. Using that logic I can play QB for the Bengals in the playoffs and never get any blame because Marvin is the head coach. Does that make any sense? Of course not.

Until Dalton has a good playoff game there is no denying his putrid performances.  Instead of making excuses for him or blaming others, it's time to face reality. What did the coach have to do with Andy Dalton missing AJ Green wide open down the field to win the game?

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2018, 12:22 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What does McCarron have to do with it? You're not telling me that's the difference in AJ's best playoff game are you?

No.  I am not saying that at all.  I am saying that he had his best playoff game in 2015 because he had the best receiving talent he ever had around him.

(08-20-2018, 12:22 AM)bfine32 Wrote: I don't have to imagine the numbers AJ would put up in the playoffs with Andy; I've seen them. 

You haven't seen them with the '15 receiving corps around him.

The only reason I brought up McCarron was to point out that Green produced much better with Dalton at QB in 2015 so he probably would have had even more yards if Dalton had been the QB in the playoff game.  

That is what the numbers say.  Can't really compare '15 to the other playoff seasons.  I means just look at Dalton's passer rating compared to all the other playoff seasons.  Totally different situations.

[*bfine32*]

(08-20-2018, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I am not saying that at all.  I am saying that he had his best playoff game in 2015 because he had the best receiving talent he ever had around him.





You haven't seen them with the '15 receiving corps around him.

The only reason I brought up McCarron was to point out that Green produced much better with Dalton at QB in 2015 so he probably would have had even more yards if Dalton had been the QB in the playoff game.  

That is what the numbers say.  Can't really compare '15 to the other playoff seasons.  I means just look at Dalton's passer rating compared to all the other playoff seasons.  Totally different situations.

What was the difference between the 2013 receiving corps and the 2015 receiving corps? 

So your answer is because other people were better. As I said: maybe you're trying too hard and dismissing the obvious. 

[Brownshoe]

(08-20-2018, 01:02 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What was the difference between the 2013 receiving corps and the 2015 receiving corps? 

So your answer is because other people were better. As I said: maybe you're trying too hard and dismissing the obvious. 

2013 was Jones and Sanus first year being full time starters, and obviously improved by 2015. Eifert was rarely used, and unsurprisingly out in the 2013 playoff game. We had a better OC too, who even admitted that he didnt target Green in the first half of a playoff game because it was his gameplan.


And I was talking about the well thrown ball Dalton threw to Green which would have been an easy TD in the chargers game.

[fredtoast]

(08-20-2018, 01:02 AM)bfine32 Wrote: What was the difference between the 2013 receiving corps and the 2015 receiving corps? 

So your answer is because other people were better. As I said: maybe you're trying too hard and dismissing the obvious. 

One thing that is obvious is that the Bengals receiving corps was much better in '15 than in any other season.  It is obvious because of the team record 104.1 passer rating.

Another thing that is obvious is that in'15 Green, as well as the rest of the receiving corpse, was more productive with Dalton at QB than McCarron.

Green has his best playoff game in 2015 for the exact same reason that the Bengals passing game set so many other records that year.

So not really understanding what you mean by "dismissing" the obvious.  Unless it is "obvious" to you that the team record passer rating was thanks to McCarron's 4 games and 97 passer rating.  That seems to make sense to some people around here I guess.

[CornerBlitz]

Andy Dalton in four playoff games:

His career playoff QB rating is 57.8. His highest rating in a game is 67. People consider an average game probably in the 80s.
1 TD and 6 picks total.
The Bengals offense has not scored more than 10 points in any of the four games. Unbelievable.
Andy Dalton has thrown over 57% once. That was the game where he had 0 TD and 3 interceptions and a passer rating of 51.

Wow I knew he was bad but I forgot just how bad this guy is.

[fredtoast]

(08-19-2018, 07:37 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I will just repeat myself.....but if people cannot even acknowledge that Andy Dalton is one of the worst starting QBs in playoff history then there really isn't any point in having objective conversations about him.

(08-20-2018, 12:52 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I haven't heard anyone since I posted in this thread admit that Dalton has been a complete and utter bum in the playoffs. 

(08-20-2018, 11:01 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Andy Dalton in four playoff games:

His career playoff QB rating is 57.8. His highest rating in a game is 67. People consider an average game probably in the 80s.
1 TD and 6 picks total.
The Bengals offense has not scored more than 10 points in any of the four games. Unbelievable.
Andy Dalton has thrown over 57% once. That was the game where he had 0 TD and 3 interceptions and a passer rating of 51.

Wow I knew he was bad but I forgot just how bad this guy is.

Are you having fun debating by yourself on this point?

Everyone agrees Dalton has sucked in the playoffs.  That is why everyone is ignoring these posts by you.

[*bfine32*]

(08-20-2018, 12:58 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I am not saying that at all.  I am saying that he had his best playoff game in 2015 because he had the best receiving talent he ever had around him.





You haven't seen them with the '15 receiving corps around him.

The only reason I brought up McCarron was to point out that Green produced much better with Dalton at QB in 2015 so he probably would have had even more yards if Dalton had been the QB in the playoff game.  

That is what the numbers say.  Can't really compare '15 to the other playoff seasons.  I means just look at Dalton's passer rating compared to all the other playoff seasons.  Totally different situations.

What was the difference between the 2013 receiving corps and the 2015 receiving corps? 

So your answer is because other people were better. As I said: maybe you're trying too hard and dismissing the obvious. 

[Brownshoe]

(08-20-2018, 11:01 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Andy Dalton in four playoff games:

His career playoff QB rating is 57.8. His highest rating in a game is 67. People consider an average game probably in the 80s.
1 TD and 6 picks total.
The Bengals offense has not scored more than 10 points in any of the four games. Unbelievable.
Andy Dalton has thrown over 57% once. That was the game where he had 0 TD and 3 interceptions and a passer rating of 51.

Wow I knew he was bad but I forgot just how bad this guy is.

To be fair the 3 INT game one of the INTs was basically a punt on 4th down and the other one was a HOF play by Watt.