How did Marvin not see the passive schemes of Guenther/Alexander?

[impactplaya]

whats getting my attention so far through 4 days of training camp is how the players are taking notice of the more aggressive nature of the oline and how the defense is more take away conscience
and attacking.
how in the heck did Marvin not see this last year in training camp.
what does he say "i see better than i hear"
well last year he must have been totally blind to.what Alexander and Guenther was teaching coaching
was Marvin so.out of touch last year?
im just flabbergasted how 2 organizations as storied as the Cowboys and Raiders hired those 2.

[mikey6866]

(07-29-2018, 08:21 PM)impactplaya Wrote: whats getting my attention so far through 4 days of training camp is how the players are taking notice of the more aggressive nature of the oline and how the defense  is more take away conscience
and attacking.
how in the heck did Marvin not see this last year in training camp.
what does he say "i see better than i hear"
well last year he must have been totally blind to.what Alexander and Guenther was teaching coaching
was Marvin so.out of touch last year?
im just flabbergasted how 2 organizations as storied as the Cowboys and Raiders hired those 2.

I would be real nervous if I was cowboys fan.  Looking at their oline they got a top guy at every position.  Only real unknown is connor williams at lg and he was another high draft pick that I would expect to excel at lg.  Only problem is paul alexander bout to make them all play like panzies and "catch" dlineman.  I think pauly will be fine on the raiders but for years I have wanted more aggressive coordinators and I think we have that finally.  Wasnt thrilled with making lazor the oc but im starting to like the move more now that it seems marvin is letting him run the show on offense.  Hes at the very least a huge upgrade on zampese.

[*bengalfan74*]

(07-29-2018, 08:21 PM)impactplaya Wrote: whats getting my attention so far through 4 days of training camp is how the players are taking notice of the more aggressive nature of the oline and how the defense  is more take away conscience
and attacking.
how in the heck did Marvin not see this last year in training camp.
what does he say "i see better than i hear"
well last year he must have been totally blind to.what Alexander and Guenther was teaching coaching
was Marvin so.out of touch last year?
im just flabbergasted how 2 organizations as storied as the Cowboys and Raiders hired those 2.

It is very curious how PA survived as long as he did ? I'm sure MB's resistance to change was a part of it, I'd love to know how much.

[Brimey]

Might be overestimating how much input Marvin has on staff decisions. I'm assuming he gives his opinion and Mike Brown makes the final decision. PA was the only OL coach he ever probably dealt with in a major capacity, and Guenther was supposed to be a Zimmer protege

[CornerBlitz]

All this talk about being more aggressive and takeaways is fine and dandy but i think some of this is just overblown camp talk. Do you really think that the defensive coaching staff wasn't focused on things like turnovers last year?

Again every off season there are some talking points that people try and talk about but that doesn't mean that in prior years these things were any less important.

[Au165]

(07-29-2018, 11:36 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: All this talk about being more aggressive and takeaways is fine and dandy but i think some of this is just overblown camp talk. Do you really think that the defensive coaching staff wasn't focused on things like turnovers last year?

Again every off season there are some talking points that people try and talk about but that doesn't mean that in prior years these things were any less important.

Scheme has a lot to do with it. When you play an off cover 2 zone with a four man rush most the times you aren’t really “creating” pressure. A lot of turnovers come from pressure and Zimmer and in turn Guenther banked on four man rushes getting home. The idea behind a man press schem is you bring extra rushers causing pressure along with the press at the line it puts DBs in a position to undercut more routes and gives the rush a little extra time to get home. Thing to remember here is you will occasionally get burnt but that’s the way it goes.

[*bfine32*]

We have no idea what Marvin saw nor his ability to change it.

[J24]

Everyone knows that this organization doesn't get rid of coaches unless there contract is up and that's what happened with those 2.

[Jhowdy54]

Just like any person in the work force. You bust your ass to impress until you've done enough to settle in. Eventually you just get tired of the same stuff every-day and do just enough to get by. The players and coaches did got bored with everything and did just enough to earn that paycheck and go home.

[*Nately120*]

(07-30-2018, 12:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We have no idea what Marvin saw nor his ability to change it.

Agreed.  As "meh" as I am on Marvin, I think it's pretty clearly documented that he's challenged MB before and MB just said "Nope" and that was that.  We can blame Marvin for just going with the flow and being along for the ride, but it's a stretch to act like he never saw an issue with guys like PA and Zampese and so on.

You may as well say the same things about Bengals fans who choose to root for this team as much as Marvin chooses to coach for them.  Wow, didn't Bengals fans notice how bad the O-line was going into 2017?  Of course we did, we were just powerless to change it.

[Sled21]

At this point, I have to believe that part of the unspoken conversations Marvin had with Brown about coming back were the coordinators and coaches he was strapped with. I think we have taken huge strides in upgrading the coaching staff, and am willing to give Marvin one more shot this year....... don't make me look like an idiot here, Merv......

[HarleyDog]

(07-30-2018, 09:00 AM)Sled21 Wrote: At this point, I have to believe that part of the unspoken conversations Marvin had with Brown about coming back were the coordinators and coaches he was strapped with. I think we have taken huge strides in upgrading the coaching staff, and am willing to give Marvin one more shot this year....... don't make me look like an idiot here, Merv......

I believe this was the case and Mervs hands were tied. This year we will see a lot of positive changes and better performance since the old bald guy released his talons on the coach. I'm not a fan of Marvins, for sole reasons of piss poor coaching and playoff victories. Maybe he will change all our minds with his new found freedom to coach the way he knows how too without being handcuffed to inept leadership and assistant coaches.

[Beaker]

(07-29-2018, 08:21 PM)impactplaya Wrote: whats getting my attention so far through 4 days of training camp is how the players are taking notice of the more aggressive nature of the oline and how the defense  is more take away conscience
and attacking.
how in the heck did Marvin not see this last year in training camp.
what does he say "i see better than i hear"
well last year he must have been totally blind to.what Alexander and Guenther was teaching coaching
was Marvin so.out of touch last year?
im just flabbergasted how 2 organizations as storied as the Cowboys and Raiders hired those 2.

ML may have seen it clearly.....but not been able to do anything about it because MB wouldnt let him get rid of asst coaches. That seems to have changed, or at least been part of the agreement for this latest extension.

[XenoMorph]

(07-29-2018, 11:09 PM)Brimey Wrote: Might be overestimating how much input Marvin has on staff decisions. I'm assuming he gives his opinion and Mike Brown makes the final decision. PA was the only OL coach he ever probably dealt with in a major capacity, and Guenther was supposed to be a Zimmer protege

guessing marvin did not have much say until this past offseason

[3wt]

(07-30-2018, 12:49 AM)bfine32 Wrote: We have no idea what Marvin saw nor his ability to change it.

This number one.

Nor do we know how (if) the coaches were hamstrung by the coaches.  My personal take is that Alexander was not hamstrung, but that Guenther was at times.   But he was also a Zim disciple and Zim favored a more contain versus pressure type of defense.

Both coaches have good reputations in the League.  I personally felt that Guenther was a fine coach.

But just as we don't know what Marvin's perception and autonomy was, we don't really know what impact these guys had on the players or to what degree their scheme was limited by coaching/ administration.

[jfkbengals]

(07-30-2018, 02:01 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Everyone knows that this organization doesn't get rid of coaches unless there contract is up and that's what happened with those 2.

That's odd that Zampeze would have a contract that expired 2 games into the season...

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-29-2018, 08:21 PM)impactplaya Wrote: whats getting my attention so far through 4 days of training camp is how the players are taking notice of the more aggressive nature of the oline and how the defense  is more take away conscience
and attacking.
how in the heck did Marvin not see this last year in training camp.
what does he say "i see better than i hear"
well last year he must have been totally blind to.what Alexander and Guenther was teaching coaching
was Marvin so.out of touch last year?
im just flabbergasted how 2 organizations as storied as the Cowboys and Raiders hired those 2.

I am getting to the point of thinking he just didn't have any control over any of it...

[sandwedge]

(07-30-2018, 02:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I am getting to the point of thinking he just didn't have any control over any of it...

I have the feeling MB let it be known, Piano Man is strictly hands off....

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(07-30-2018, 02:25 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I have the feeling MB let it be known, Piano Man is strictly hands off....

Yep, his buddy who always told him he knew what he was doing...

I think Katie, Troy and Marv started to get a clue he was wrong and then Lazor shown everybody including Mikey the truth.

PA was a stubborn sumbitch and it hurt the entire team.

The only way to get better is to admit you are wrong at times.

I am watching this O-line under Pollack and it looks nothing like last year. I just saw Og block Dunlap handily in a vid.

[3wt]

(07-30-2018, 02:42 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yep, his buddy who always told him he knew what he was doing...

I think Katie, Troy and Marv started to get a clue he was wrong and then Lazor shown everybody including Mikey the truth.

PA was a stubborn sumbitch and it hurt the entire team.

The only way to get better is to admit you are wrong at times.

I am watching this O-line under Pollack and it looks nothing like last year. I just saw Og block Dunlap handily in a vid.

Saw what you did.  And he put some nasty on the end of the block.   Maybe there's hope?