The truth about our O-line situation.

[fredtoast]

We came into this offseason with exactly ONE proven starter on our O-line (Boling). We didn't need to patch up a weak O-line. We needed to completely rebuild one of the worst O-lines in team history. We had 4 holes to fill.

Glen was a great move.

Price looks like a good move, but no rookie is a sure thing. Ogbuehi and Price were both taken with the 21st pick. I am not ripping Price. I loved the pick. But no rookie is a sure thing.

Even if Price works out (which I think he will) that still leaves 2 holes or 40% of the O-line with big question marks.

Redmon and Westerman look to have some potential, but combined they played less than 200 snaps last year. But remember these....

Last two games of the '07 season rookie Chinedum Ndukwe has 2 ints against the Browns and a long fumble return for a td against the Dolphins. bengals win both of those games to finish 7-9 (sound familiar?) and Chinny is a darling of the fanbase. They see him as a key to the defense. Instead he plays more like the 7th rounder he was while starting for a couple of more seasons.

How about when Vinny Rey played two great games back to back in 2013 against the Ravens and Browns where he had 27 tackles 3 sacks and an interception? Everybody was crying about how Marvin was keeping another superstar on the bench.

In 2015 Shawn Williams made a couple of big fourth quarter interceptions against the Steelers and Forty-Niners. Fans were thrilled by his potential. He was "clutch". He was a "playmaker".

So I am still a bit skeptical of Redmon and Westerman.

I gave Fisher a break after his first season because they moved him around so much. But last year was his third, and he never did a lot to impress me.

Ogbuehi is what he is. I have seen players make huge gains after their first and second seasons, but Cedric has also had three seasons.

Hart is a scrub.

If Trey Hopkins is healthy he is possibly the best O-lineman after Glenn, Boling, and Price.

And finally, Pollack may be a good coach, but he is not some hot shot who just got promoted to O-line coach. He was actually let go by his previouys employer. So while he may be good, he is not some guru with a flawless record. Too many people around here are treating him like some kind of legend.

I believe our O-line will definitely be better with the addition of Glenn and Price, but we still have 40% of the line to replace. If we can't shore up those two positions it will be another long season even with the upgrades.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-04-2018, 03:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  
I believe our O-line will definitely be better with the addition of Glenn and Price, but we still have 40% of the line to replace.  If we can't shore up those two positions it will be another long season even with the upgrades.

Hell of a post, fredtoast.  Well stated, on all accounts.

I agree with you completely, on your opinion of the six players that we have fighting for two starting spots.  Personally, I don't feel like our starting RT is even on the roster, yet.  I made mention, back shortly after the draft, that I believe the Bengals aren't finished adding talent from other teams.  I have a strong feeling that after the first cutdown day, that there will be several veteran OL looking for new homes, due to being slary cap sacrifices.

I feel like the Bengals can come up with a RG, from the bodies competing on the roster, right now.  However, I think that RT position might need the security of an experienced veteran, in his last years in the league, to bridge the gap when a more permanent solution is found.

[GreenCornBengal]

Does it make you mad when people have the slightest 'unwarranted' excitement in something? lol

You make good points and you are most likely right. However, I do think that replacing 40% of the line fixed 65% of the glaring issues. Our Guards played OK at times last year.

I also think there is an added glimmer of hope based on the fact that players have a chance of turning things around with a new technique.

I think we will learn a lot this Thursday about how effective the line is going to be this year. I don't have much faith in Redmond or that other guy you mentioned who played those last games of last season. Perfectly aligned with you one those guys. But hopefully one of them is serviceable enough to hold his ground in games if needed.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

It will take some time no question. But there is a different mentality and it shown early and our D-line took notice
and now the D-line is responding. Not near as concerned as if we still had Piano Man around. If that were the case
i would say there is no hope. Dude couldn't coach up trash players. Pollack coached up a trash player in Doug Free
in Dallas.

Pollack being let go by Dallas was a big mistake, them bringing in PA was an even bigger one. You all will see this
once an injury happens to those dudes that were stellar under Frank Pollack.

Redmond or Westerman should be serviceable at RG.

Perkins just might make a push for RT from what i am hearing from Lap. Dude is just solid is what Lap says.

Not concerned about the left side of the line or Center. Glenn = major upgrade. Boling will be better with Glenn
and Price flanking him. Price will get down the snaps i am sure of it.

This is ten times better than last year and we won 7 games and could of won more.

[SunsetBengal]

(08-04-2018, 04:27 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Does it make you mad when people have the slightest 'unwarranted' excitement in something? lol

You make good points and you are most likely right. However, I do think that replacing 40% of the line fixed 65% of the glaring issues. Our Guards played OK at times last year.

I also think there is an added glimmer of hope based on the fact that players have a chance of turning things around with a new technique.

I think we will learn a lot this Thursday about how effective the line is going to be this year. I don't have much faith in Redmond or that other guy you mentioned who played those last games of last season. Perfectly aligned with you one those guys. But hopefully one of them is serviceable enough to hold his ground in games if needed.

Where's Dennis Roland when we need him??

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2018, 04:33 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Where's Dennis Roland when we need him??

You mean Andre Smith?

[fredtoast]

On a positive note our biggest upgrade was at LT.

I'd rather have a couple of holes to fill on the right side than a gaping hole at LT. At least on the right side Dalton can see who is getting beat.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(08-04-2018, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: On a positive note our biggest upgrade was at LT.

I'd rather have a couple of holes to fill on the right side than a gaping hole at LT. At least on the right side Dalton can see who is getting beat.

Yep. Dalton never had to worry about his blindside with big Whit over there. We need to get back to that. Andy definitely had a case of the yips at times last season (understandably) where he took off before he really had to. Hopefully Glenn will help with Dalton’s confidence.

[fredtoast]

(08-04-2018, 05:11 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yep. Dalton never had to worry about his blindside with big Whit over there. We need to get back to that. Andy definitely had a case of the yips at times last season (understandably) where he took off before he really had to. Hopefully Glenn will help with Dalton’s confidence.

I don't have any numbers to back this up, and I honestly can't name half the starting O-linemen in the league.  But I feel we can find a couple of guys for the right side that may not be great, but they won't be the worst (hopefully).  Last year our LT had to be among the worst in the league. 

That is a big reason we were dead last in the league in total offense. 

[fredtoast]

FYI  Last year our offense ranked

32nd in total yards 
31st in rushing yards
31st in first downs
29th in yards per carry
29th in 3rd down conversion
28th in rushing tds
27th in passing yards
27th in yards per play

[SunsetBengal]

(08-04-2018, 05:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You mean Andre Smith?

Yes!  Andre Smith on this OL would be looking pretty sweet.  His deal with the Cards is right around what I think the Bengals will eventually end up paying whomever they pick up to hold the spot down for the next year or two.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2018, 05:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: On a positive note our biggest upgrade was at LT.

I'd rather have a couple of holes to fill on the right side than a gaping hole at LT.  At least on the right side Dalton can see who is getting beat.

For sure, dudes coming at you from your blindside really messes with your confidence.

(08-04-2018, 05:47 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes!  Andre Smith on this OL would be looking pretty sweet.  His deal with the Cards is right around what I think the Bengals will eventually end up paying whomever they pick up to hold the spot down for the next year or two.

Kind of wish we brought Andre back, still, like what i am hearing from Lap about Perkins.

He did well in the one game he played in last year against the Ravens. Lap said he is solid in every way.

Doesn't sound too bad to man RT for us if Fisher, Hart and Og are not up to the task. The Rod Taylor injury i
think pretty much will force us into adding another Tackle once a decent one gets cut. I think we will be alright.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2018, 05:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't have any numbers to back this up, and I honestly can't name half the starting O-linemen in the league.  But I feel we can find a couple of guys for the right side that may not be great, but they won't be the worst (hopefully).  Last year our LT had to be among the worst in the league. 

That is a big reason we were dead last in the league in total offense. 

Og had to have been the worst LT in the league last year, had to be.

[Brimey]

I agree on all counts... But also think that line play around the league has deteriorated quite a bit over the past few years. I don't think the question is so much "can we have 5 good starters?", it's more "can the line be at least average?" Because there is a plethora of weapons and a QB who gets the ball out quick.

[Brimey]

(08-04-2018, 06:06 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Og had to have been the worst LT in the league last year, had to be.

At the beginning of last year I couldn't help but think, "If Og plays like a first round pick, maybe this team can do something. He's been doing MMA training after all!"

About halftime of week 1 against the Ravens I knew how delusional I was being

[XsandOs]

(08-04-2018, 04:32 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Pollack being let go by Dallas was a big mistake.

Redmond or Westerman should be serviceable at RG.[/size]

This is ten times better than last year and we won 7 games and could of won more.[/size]

Agreed!

Dallas let another coach go, and I bet they regret it now. That was Zimmer.

I like both Redmond and Westerman.

In worst case scenario, 60% is better than last year's 20%. And we won 7 games with tat 20%.

I have not given up on Cedric!

[BoomerFan]

Looking the stats Fred posted there is nowhere to go but up from here. I know Price is a rookie and I'll make allowances for that. I believe a few years in he's going to be a top Center but for now there are going to be some rough plays even after he gets the ballsnap worked out. And I've heard all the tackles have gotten beaten in camp (even Glenn) but I have to believe some of that is due to our above average Dline. There are going to be growing pains and especially that right side is a big question mark but am I optimistic/think we are better than last year? Yes absolutely.

That said, I still think we should try having a 6 man line with Ogbuehi at RT and then Jake Fisher as essentially a TE (Hopkins at RG I guess unless someone else wins the job in camp). If you can't beat 'em with quality, outnumber 'em. Run behind that (with maybe Ryan Hewitt as a lead blocker) and there will be holes.

[*SHRacerX*]

Good points all, but I don't see Westerman and Redmond as guys that lucked in to 2-3 big plays and won starting jobs because of it. I see them as guys that came in with zero game experience, handled a shift in blocking schemes, and worked next to a dud in Bodine yet get the Bengals two different 100 yard rushers (something I don't think they had done all season except against the Browns).

Westerman will be an upgrade over what we got from Hopkins. Too bad about his illness. He still has time to get the weight back on and should be able to win the job by the end of the preseason.

Redmond is my favorite guy in terms of "on paper RT". Big, Long, Nasty, stronger than hell....

Will that translate to the field? I am betting it does. I isolated him on his play last year and he drove some guys out of the line of scrimmage with ease. A skeptic would say "He wasn't beat up from 16 games of action" and an optimist would say "He was doing this in his first NFL action". Which ever side of the fence you reside, I think he is, at the very least, a very serviceable backup guard or he might even be our starting RT.

If you go "Last year vs. This year" on the line, and specifically watched the problem areas from last year, you would see several key deficiencies:

LT: Most evident on passing downs, the LT would get set up with outside moves only to get smoked inside on third down and Dalton would have no time to wait for a receiver to break open. Defenses knew this and really only had to defend about 15 yards of the field. No time to get deep. No time to step in to throws. And I don't care if your name is Sir Tom Brady, if you take enough blind shots, it affects all of your game.

RT: No push in the rushing attack, very short protection in passing downs. It wasn't as bad as the LT spot, but it wasn't even average.

Center: By far, the worst of the bad. Constantly shoved in to Dalton's lap. On rushing downs, often whiffed on his guy and had the RB making cuts three yards deep in the backfield. Really limited their ability to pull Boling, because Boling would have to run around Bodine as he was pushed backwards. I understand Price is a rookie, but if he is even able to duplicate what Elflien did for the Vikes, he will have a huge impact on this team. I see this as the single greatest improvement on our team.

Pollack- Aggressive demeanor and drive blocking instead of always sliding and catching should get more out of the guys we have.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-04-2018, 06:46 PM)Brimey Wrote: At the beginning of last year I couldn't help but think, "If Og plays like a first round pick, maybe this team can do something. He's been doing MMA training after all!"

About halftime of week 1 against the Ravens I knew how delusional I was being

Last year was an "if year" for sure. With PA coaching Og i should of known better cause i was there with you
being delusional. The O-line has actually been fighting in Training Camp this time around under Pollack...

Even Ogbuehi.

(08-04-2018, 06:57 PM)XsandOs Wrote: Agreed!

Dallas let another coach go, and I bet they regret it now. That was Zimmer.

I like both Redmond and Westerman.

In worst case scenario, 60% is better than last year's 20%. And we won 7 games with tat 20%.

I have not given up on Cedric!

Jerry always thinks the grass is greener, just watch how yellow it turns.

I thought i gave up on Cedric Ogbuehi til i saw him stand up Dunlap, then i thought maybe there is a chance for the guy.

Definately hope he can become at the very least a decent backup at the Tackle spots.

[Brimey]

(08-05-2018, 02:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Last year was an "if year" for sure. With PA coaching Og i should of known better cause i was there with you
being delusional. The O-line has actually been fighting in Training Camp this time around under Pollack...

Even Ogbuehi.


Jerry always thinks the grass is greener, just watch how yellow it turns.

I thought i gave up on Cedric Ogbuehi til i saw him stand up Dunlap, then i thought maybe there is a chance for the guy.

Definately hope he can become at the very least a decent backup at the Tackle spots.

Absolutely. Perhaps Im still delusional, because I was hoping Fisher would emerge as a solid RT and Og as a guy who could fill in at either tackle position in a reserve capacity without sticking out like a sore thumb.

That 2015 draft in retropsret was absolutely disastrous for the franchise and would be nice if something could be salvaged