If the Bengals were serious about winning...

[WeezyBengal]

(09-10-2018, 02:16 PM)Au165 Wrote: I have said for weeks there is an O line issue in the NFL. Buffalo has no line, the Giants have very little line, the Texans just lost their RT for the year, the Cowboys have serious issues on the line, the Browns who spent a ton on their line is bad, Seattle has had issues for years on their line. I can go on and on, but people thinking there are quality O line just hanging out there for trade are delusional. We got Cordy Glenn because he was relatively expensive and coming off injury. Make no mistake about it we took a risk on Glenn and it appears it worked out but there have been others who tried similar approaches and it back fired.

Maybe towards the trade deadline an older O linemen on a rebuilding team with an expiring contract could be had, but we are still 6 to 7 weeks away from that.

Part of the problem is the systems that these guys play in in college. A lot of them come from spread offense systems and are now trying to convert to a pro style offense. Its two completely different styles of play and a lot of these guys cant adjust or just dont know how to play a pro style offense. 

[WeezyBengal]

(09-10-2018, 03:45 PM)BengalD Wrote: Go find some o-lineman Belichick cut from his camp.. Guarantee those dudes would be walking the street for two years - he'll pick them up and sign them the week of the AFC championship and they're super bowl caliber.  Why can't other teams do it?

Yeah, I just dont get it. I was watching the Pats game yesterday and Brady sits back in the pocket for what seems like 10 seconds at times. Its ridiculous. 

[Whatever]

(09-10-2018, 12:45 PM)depthchart Wrote: To me, the Bengals showed they were "ALL IN" on Bobby Hart at Right Tackle and on just using an internal Right Guard candidate when they passed on taking an Offensive Lineman with one of their two Third round picks in the last Draft.

Tackle Orlando Brown Jr (now with the Ravens) was on the Board in round 3 as well as Guard/Tackle prospect Chukwma Okorafor (now with the Steelers).

It would be nice to have one of these two O-line guys on the roster right now at say the expense of getting LB Malik Jefferson.

The O-line Developmental Pipeline seemed to be a more Urgent priority than say another Linebacker to develop.

This does not mean the Bengals would have to Start say Orlando or Chukwma right away but to get them on the Path of development.

By the 2019 Draft we they would have had a Solid feel for how Orlando or Chukwma were progressing and may have even gone to the one they may have taken mid 2018 season.

They are now "ALL IN" on Bobby Hart/Redmond WITHOUT a Fresh Blood rookie like Orlando or Chukwma in the Pipeline.

I made a Thread right after the Draft showing my concern about the Bengals not doing this or getting that one extra Mid Round offensive lineman last Draft and I got ripped some for it.

But I stand firm that they should have Invested that one more mid round pick towards the O-line last Draft.

Now it is Bobby Hart/Internal Guard or Bust.   It looks like a Mid season Trade seems unlikely.

P. S. 

I get that neither Orlando or Chukwuma are Starting right now for the Ravens/Steelers, however, they appear to have better players in front of them on those teams than Hart/Redmond. Experience level can keep them on the Bench for a time even behind a Bobby Hart but they have the opportunity to Develop & possibly overtake the Veteran in front of them sooner rather than later at times. They first have to be in the PIPELINE.

Brown was a combine disaster.  He could literally only put up 14 reps in the bench.  His conditioning was atrocious and serious questions about his work ethic were raised.  Consensus was that he needs at least a year in an NFL strength program.

Okorafor is a small school prospect that got a late start in football ie: project player.  He's a talented athlete with zero mean streak that scouts think will just get pushed around in the NFL.  Sound familiar?
He was also commonly graded as a day 3 pick.

Neither guy looks to be the type that's going to be ready to start this year.  You can't get those kind of OT's in 3 and 4 anymore.  Those guys are gone by the end of 2, at the latest.  

[Luvnit2]

(09-10-2018, 02:24 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Really, you saw that at the beginning of the game when the team was lethargic? Lets not forget the Colts are a weak team so barely beating them is not exactly an accomplishment. The OL and LB weaknesses spoken about many times here were exposed yesterday but better teams will rip them apart.

And our DL will rip inferior OL's apart as well. I did not see Glenn get or Boling have issues. I saw price get steamrolled on first drive, then had a few issues holding his ground, but the rookie played well overall. Redmond did some things well and I think he will be OK in time. That leaves the right OT as major weakness. We can use a tight end (we have 4 of them) to get into maximum protection if need be.

Our coaches saw the film, let's see if they can coach them up. Huge test Thursday against one of best front 7's in football. They may not be ready for the Raven's yet, the OL is a work in progress and I think won't starting gelling until last 3/4 of season. So we need to figure out ways to win as a team in the meantime, great special teams and great defense will keep us in games if those 2 units play well.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2018, 02:16 PM)Au165 Wrote: I have said for weeks there is an O line issue in the NFL. Buffalo has no line, the Giants have very little line, the Texans just lost their RT for the year, the Cowboys have serious issues on the line, the Browns who spent a ton on their line is bad, Seattle has had issues for years on their line. I can go on and on, but people thinking there are quality O line just hanging out there for trade are delusional. We got Cordy Glenn because he was relatively expensive and coming off injury. Make no mistake about it we took a risk on Glenn and it appears it worked out but there have been others who tried similar approaches and it back fired.

Maybe towards the trade deadline an older O linemen on a rebuilding team with an expiring contract could be had, but we are still 6 to 7 weeks away from that.

No shit, look who's coaching them now....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2018, 03:45 PM)BengalD Wrote: Go find some o-lineman Belichick cut from his camp.. Guarantee those dudes would be walking the street for two years - he'll pick them up and sign them the week of the AFC championship and they're super bowl caliber.  Why can't other teams do it?

For one thing, BB has Dante Scarnecchia coaching that unit.  Then there's the "Patriot Way"....whatever that is.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2018, 03:51 PM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Part of the problem is the systems that these guys play in in college. A lot of them come from spread offense systems and are now trying to convert to a pro style offense. Its two completely different styles of play and a lot of these guys cant adjust or just dont know how to play a pro style offense. 

You're right about that.  I've mentioned this during the preseason.....the college game has made it tough on some positions transitioning to the NFL. Lineman and QBs are at the top of that list, IMO.

[depthchart]

(09-10-2018, 04:07 PM)Whatever Wrote: Brown was a combine disaster.  He could literally only put up 14 reps in the bench.  His conditioning was atrocious and serious questions about his work ethic were raised.  Consensus was that he needs at least a year in an NFL strength program.

Okorafor is a small school prospect that got a late start in football ie: project player.  He's a talented athlete with zero mean streak that scouts think will just get pushed around in the NFL.  Sound familiar?
He was also commonly graded as a day 3 pick.

Neither guy looks to be the type that's going to be ready to start this year.  You can't get those kind of OT's in 3 and 4 anymore.  Those guys are gone by the end of 2, at the latest.  

3 time Pro Bowl Guard Trai Turner was from the 2014 late third round. Pro Bowl tackle Alejandro Villanueva was Undrafted.

Talent can be found anywhere in Drafts though more likely in the highest of rounds.

The Ravens and Steelers believed in Brown and Okorafor to the tune of using 3rd round picks on them.

Yes, they would both need developmental time but I would rather have one of them in the Pipeline right now versus say having Malik Jefferson in the Linebacker pipeline.

It is Bobby Hart and Redmond that they would be pushing to get the Jobs from as they develop & it is not at all impossible that either of them could have been ready enough to do so by mid-season.

Even if that development were to blossom in 2019 with mere positive signs in 2018 from Brown or Okorafor, we would have them in house already versus having LB Malik in house developing.

The need was Greater at O-line, so ADD to that Pipeline versus linebacker with that one pick.

That's what I would have changed & said so right after the Draft.

Now we are ALL IN with Hart & Redmond with Cedric & Westerman in the Pipeline.

We got Fresh Blood at Left Tackle and Center and we may regret not having some on the Right Side even if it is still developing & a 3rd round prospect.

[Au165]

(09-10-2018, 04:54 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: No shit, look who's coaching them now....

Haha, honestly the issue is the injuries and age I think are catching up with them. As bad as PA is I don’t think even he could sink them that quick.

[McC]

(09-10-2018, 11:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: like they all want us to believe...if they really had the sense of urgency to win now...then they would trade for a quality offensive lineman.

They would give up a first round pick, trade for a quality offensive lineman, and sure up their main team weakness.

The first problem, and the biggest, is that there just aren't enough good linemen to go around.  What team has a starter quality RT riding the bench?

[McC]

(09-10-2018, 11:45 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Yes, the most important one. And we addressed the next biggest need by taking Price. Add bringing in Pollack and we did a lot to improve the line.

It would have taken a miracle to fix it completely in one offseason.

This. 

[McC]

(09-10-2018, 11:54 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: So I guess we should suck it up and just deal with half of the offensive line sucking the rest of the year. Got it. 

Technically, it's only 40%.  And we do have other options at RG, so it could end up being 20%.  It is what it is.

[Beaker]

(09-10-2018, 11:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: like they all want us to believe...if they really had the sense of urgency to win now...then they would trade for a quality offensive lineman.

They would give up a first round pick, trade for a quality offensive lineman, and sure up their main team weakness.

Because trading for Glenn,
replacing both coordinators,
resigning Geno and Dunlap,
using Johnson to keep another CB,
and drafting a C in the first round,
 weren't enough to show that they are serious.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

It was too much to ask to fix 4/5ths of the OL in one season. However, it was not to much to ask why they let 4/5ths of their OL deteriorate to such a level. And there is more than 20% to fix still, Redmond is a prospect still and they have essentially zero depth. By the time they fix it some other area will be very weak, they can never work on them all it would seem, it would blow Mikey's mind to go out and sign 4 or 5 mid level free agents at once.

[Whatever]

(09-10-2018, 04:59 PM)depthchart Wrote: 3 time Pro Bowl Guard Trai Turner was from the 2014 late third round. Pro Bowl tackle Alejandro Villanueva was Undrafted.

Talent can be found anywhere in Drafts though more likely in the highest of rounds.

The Ravens and Steelers believed in Brown and Okorafor to the tune of using 3rd round picks on them.

Yes, they would both need developmental time but I would rather have one of them in the Pipeline right now versus say having Malik Jefferson in the Linebacker pipeline.

It is Bobby Hart and Redmond that they would be pushing to get the Jobs from as they develop & it is not at all impossible that either of them could have been ready enough to do so by mid-season.

Even if that development were to blossom in 2019 with mere positive signs in 2018 from Brown or Okorafor, we would have them in house already versus having LB Malik in house developing.

The need was Greater at O-line, so ADD to that Pipeline versus linebacker with that one pick.

That's what I would have changed & said so right after the Draft.

Now we are ALL IN with Hart & Redmond with Cedric & Westerman in the Pipeline.

We got Fresh Blood at Left Tackle and Center and we may regret not having some on the Right Side even if it is still developing & a 3rd round prospect.

LB has been a weakness for quite awhile.  Burfict is out for the first 4 games.  Vigil was dissappointing last year.  Plus, you also have to give your new DC a chance to draft and develop guys that fit his system.  You can't just dump all the focus on the OL or your D will suffer, if not this year, then in a year or two.  Plus, you can't have Austin feeling like he's chopped liver.

You can find talent in any round, but the fact that your examples run back to 2014 speaks volumes.  

Who cares that those two teams thought enough of those guys to draft them in round 3?  The Ravens thought enough of Michael Oher to draft him in the 1st.  The Steelers thought enough of Mike Adams to draft him in the second.  Just because those teams drafted them at those spots doesn't mean they were a good fit or a good value for the Bengals in the 3rd round.  Every team has it's own draft board because every team has it's own system and different players are valued differently based on that system.  Brown is lazy and Okorafor is a soft, finesse T.  Neither one seems like the type of player Pollack, a hard nosed coach who wants to inject some meanness and nastiness into the OL, would value.  Okorafor sounds right up Piano Man's ally, though.

As for RG, both Westerman and Redman showed flashes last year when they got to play.  Redman especially seems like Pollack's type of player.  At RT, the likely feeling was probably that Pollack could redeem either Og or Fisher, but it didn't happen.  Next year is supposed to be a good T class.  I think it can be argued that they should have pushed for a better potential stopgap than Hart, but we are basing Hart's performance off of one regular season game and a handful of preseason series.  There is potential for him to play better as the year progresses.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2018, 05:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: Haha, honestly the issue is the injuries and age I think are catching up with them. As bad as PA is I don’t think even he could sink them that quick.

I'd say you're right, but I just couldn't resist the shot....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-10-2018, 05:57 PM)McC Wrote: The first problem, and the biggest, is that there just aren't enough good linemen to go around.  What team has a starter quality RT riding the bench?

Right.  Something to ponder.....is it a lack of talent on oline league wide, or is it more that dlinemen have evolved faster?  I mean, you have big guys that can flat out fly up the field, and smaller guys that play bigger with a ton of strength.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(09-11-2018, 11:00 AM)Wyche Wrote: Right.  Something to ponder.....is it a lack of talent on oline league wide, or is it more that dlinemen have evolved faster?  I mean, you have big guys that can flat out fly up the field, and smaller guys that play bigger with a ton of strength.

At different times there are gluts and shortages at various positions. Shortages of QB's, shutdown corners, OL, etc. For the past few years it has been a glaring shortage of good OL, which means you (a) need to draft/evaluate more of them (b) pay more for the good ones, perhaps even over pay to keep them and © adapt your offensive schemes to account for the weakness. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-11-2018, 11:05 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: At different times there are gluts and shortages at various positions. Shortages of QB's, shutdown corners, OL, etc. For the past few years it has been a glaring shortage of good OL, which means you (a) need to draft/evaluate more of them (b) pay more for the good ones, perhaps even over pay to keep them and © adapt your offensive schemes to account for the weakness. 

Good point too.  That 2105 draft, whiffing in the 1st 2 rounds on tackles, really hurt us.  Letting Zeitler leave was a bad decision too.  Hopefully the trend reverses, and good olinemen start restocking themselves.  I was just thinking about how much it seems like dlinemen have really become better athletes than in the past.  These guys are fast and strong these days.  It seems talent can be found all over the draft board anymore.  As others have noted....maybe the spread offense is effecting olinemen as well.