Take a look at Smith before comments on Dalton

[type_stripe]

Alex Smith used to be horrendous. All before the NFC West was the "elite" division its been n recent years. In fact during the time the NFC west was the weakest division, allowing the under .500 Seahawks take a playoff spot. Niner fans used to boo Smith and cry for Carr to start...But since Harbaugh and continuing into KC he's been solid. His performance of tonight's first half was what has seemed like a norm of his since the Harbaugh era. Dalton has performed better than Smith in his first 4 seasons. just saying the talk of "Dalton hasn't progressed one bit" is getting old. Perhaps he is just what he is: a game manager. But being just a "game manager" doesnt keep an offense from being potent, or a team from being successful.

[WhoDeyWho]

(08-28-2015, 11:08 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Alex Smith used to be horrendous. All before the NFC West was the "elite" division its been n recent years. In fact during the time the NFC west was the weakest division, allowing the under .500 Seahawks take a playoff spot. Niner fans used to boo Smith and cry for Carr to start...But since Harbaugh and continuing into KC he's been solid. His performance of tonight's first half was what has seemed like a norm of his since the Harbaugh era. Dalton has performed better than Smith in his first 4 seasons. just saying the talk of "Dalton hasn't progressed one bit" is getting old. Perhaps he is just what he is: a game manager. But being just a "game manager" doesnt keep an offense from being potent, or a team from being successful.

They were pretty potent in 2013.  And this with Ben Jarvus as the starting RB.  

[ItsOdellThurman]

The argument isn't whether Smith is solid and if Dalton can be that. The argument is can a QB like that take you all the way? IMO, Alex Smith can't. Not unless it's a once in century season where you assemble a legendary defense and completely avoid injuries. I believe this was much more likely in a prior era. Not in today's era of QB's averaging over 30 passing attempts per game, very offense-friendly rules and in playoff expansion.

That is why people question Andy Dalton. And I'm a Dalton supporter and won't bash him, but it's not unfair to wonder if he can win a Super Bowl.

It's almost comparable to staying in a relationship with a girl you really, really like, but she isn't EVERYTHING you want. Certain personalities and mindsets won't settle for that, even if it means a lifetime of searching for the right girl (rebuilding forever). Others will stick with what is comfortable and ride it out until it's gone.

[WhoDeyWho]

(08-28-2015, 11:26 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: The argument isn't whether Smith is solid and if Dalton can be that.  The argument is can a QB like that take you all the way?  IMO, Alex Smith can't.  Not unless it's a once in century season where you assemble a legendary defense and completely avoid injuries.  I believe this was much more likely in a prior era.  Not in today's era of QB's averaging over 30 passing attempts per game, very offense-friendly rules and in playoff expansion.

That is why people question Andy Dalton.  And I'm a Dalton supporter and won't bash him, but it's not unfair to wonder if he can win a Super Bowl.

It's almost comparable to staying in a relationship with a girl you really, really like, but she isn't EVERYTHING you want.  Certain personalities and mindsets won't settle for that, even if it means a lifetime of searching for the right girl (rebuilding forever).  Others will stick with what is comfortable and ride it out until it's gone.

Joe Flacco anyone? 

[Sweetness]

(08-28-2015, 11:50 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Joe Flacco anyone? 

I don't think the guy is a hall of famer but he did throw 11 touchdowns and 0 picks in their superbowl run with previous playoff wins before that. I think that's a little bit different of a circumstance then being discussed.

[type_stripe]

(08-28-2015, 11:26 PM)ItsOdellThurman Wrote: The argument isn't whether Smith is solid and if Dalton can be that.  The argument is can a QB like that take you all the way?  IMO, Alex Smith can't.  Not unless it's a once in century season where you assemble a legendary defense and completely avoid injuries.  I believe this was much more likely in a prior era.  Not in today's era of QB's averaging over 30 passing attempts per game, very offense-friendly rules and in playoff expansion.

That is why people question Andy Dalton.  And I'm a Dalton supporter and won't bash him, but it's not unfair to wonder if he can win a Super Bowl.

It's almost comparable to staying in a relationship with a girl you really, really like, but she isn't EVERYTHING you want.  Certain personalities and mindsets won't settle for that, even if it means a lifetime of searching for the right girl (rebuilding forever).  Others will stick with what is comfortable and ride it out until it's gone.

I understand where you're coming from, but Smith was their QB when they almost went into the Super Bowl but the 2 kick return fumbles by Kyle Williams cost them vs. the Giants. And when the Niners played the Ravens in the Super Bowl, Kaep was injected to do the same job as Smith that season- just manage the game and look for the occasional big play. 

But back to the point, I think its ok to label a QB as a game manager based on their talent. But that doesnt equal an issue on offense as long as the HC and OC understand it, create gameplan around that, and apply it in the game.

[BURROWorBUST]

(08-29-2015, 12:12 AM)Sweetness Wrote: I don't think the guy is a hall of famer but he did throw 11 touchdowns and 0 picks in their superbowl run with previous playoff wins before that. I think that's a little bit different of a circumstance then being discussed.

And look at Andy's stats before the New England game last year.  He has to time his runs like Flacco, I guess.

Edit: And Flacco plays as well against us as Andy plays against Cleveland.

[oncemoreuntothejimbreech]

Look at the list of Super Bowl winning teams. Look at the winning team's QB. How many of the winners had a QB better than Dalton?  How many of the winners had a QB worse than Dalton?

When I look at the list, Dalton doesn't seem to be in the same group of the majority of those QBs. Is it possible to win with Dalton?  Yeah, it's possible. But, with the size of his contract it will be difficult to invest in a supporting cast necessary to win with a QB of his caliber.

[Stormborn]

The comparison between Dalton and Smith is comparing two different types of averageness.

One is a straight line of meh, the other is a roller coaster that averages out to meh.

If I had either QB I wouldn't be asking for the other because in the end it won't really make a difference. One doesn't do a lot and the other does a lot on both spectrums.

[J24]

(08-29-2015, 12:21 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Look at the list of Super Bowl winning teams. Look at the winning team's QB. How many of the winners had a QB better than Dalton?  How many of the winners had a QB worse than Dalton?

When I look at the list, Dalton doesn't seem to be in the same group of the majority of those QBs. Is it possible to win with Dalton?  Yeah, it's possible. But, with the size of his contract it will be difficult to invest in a supporting cast necessary to win with a QB of his caliber.

What are you talking about we have one of the best supporting casts in the NFL?

[*Nately120*]

Smith's big progression took place when he went from a lousy HC to a good one, so I can see one big reason this might not apply to Dalton.

[WhoDeyWho]

(08-29-2015, 12:12 AM)Sweetness Wrote: I don't think the guy is a hall of famer but he did throw 11 touchdowns and 0 picks in their superbowl run with previous playoff wins before that. I think that's a little bit different of a circumstance then being discussed.

Not really.  Both of their regular season QB ratings are pretty similar.  And Smith has a much higher playoff QB rating than Flacco does.  He has 9 TDs and 0 picks for his playoff career. 

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 12:40 AM)Stormborn Wrote: The comparison between Dalton and Smith is comparing two different types of averageness.

One is a straight line of meh, the other is a roller coaster that averages out to meh.

If I had either QB I wouldn't be asking for the other because in the end it won't really make a difference. One doesn't do a lot and the other does a lot on both spectrums.

Smith's first 4 seasons weren't "meh", they were below "meh". Not trying to create a "switch" but an observation about how Smith eventually became a QB a playoff caliber team was able to rely on. And it took more than 4 years for him to get in a good enough flow for the new coaching staff to stick with him in SF and maintain a starting position for another playoff-capable team as well. And obviously offensive strategies which don't expect him to be a Rodgers or Brees or manning. Could be a similar case with Dalton.

[ItsOdellThurman]

Again, in this thread I've seen a few people responding with "very closes" or "almosts." That's the main point. I absolutely believe the Bengals should've been playing, at minimum, in an AFC divisional game in the last 3 years (the first year was kind of a fluke, to make the playoffs). Last year, injuries, an insane amount. The year before, that was the best team in the last 4 years, got a home playoff game and...nope.

There's a big different between getting to the conference championship game and WINNING the Super Bowl. There's a big difference in playing in the Super Bowl and WINNING the Super Bowl.

Kerry Collins, Rex Grossman, Jake Delhomme and Colin Kaepernick are the only QB's who have even played in a Super Bowl in the last 20 years who weren't pretty comfortably top 10 QB's in the NFL at the time.

[Stormborn]

(08-29-2015, 01:46 AM)type_stripe Wrote: Smith's first 4 seasons weren't "meh", they were below "meh". Not trying to create a "switch" but an observation about how Smith eventually became a QB a playoff caliber team was able to rely on. And it took more than 4 years for him to get in a good enough flow for the new coaching staff to stick with him in SF and maintain a starting position for another playoff-capable team as well. And obviously offensive strategies which don't expect him to be a Rodgers or Brees or manning. Could be a similar case with Dalton.

I'm talking about where they are now. The two get lumped together in comparisons sometimes.

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 12:46 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Smith's big progression took place when he went from a lousy HC to a good one, so I can see one big reason this might not apply to Dalton.

Could be the case, I mean the Niners selected Smith 1st overall to be the savior for the franchise, the next man in line of the chain of Joe Montana and Steve Young. So there was hope. But the new HC could have selected a new QB (enter CK) to be the elite QB everyone wants to "take you there" (well now the coaching staff is pretty much new and the question marks around CK are becoming louder). CK was held to play the same type of game as smith under Harbaugh- manage plays and get the big gainer occasionally (except the Smith to Davis long ball became a CK run). But Smith isn't holding the coaches hand anymore. Reid wanted Smith for a reason, and considering their turn around from a 2-14 season I think it was a smart move. 

Now as for Mr. Dalton, I think if Hue and Marv stop covering their eyes & realize they have a pretty good game manager and nothing really more (Like Harbaugh's staff and Reid now) they'd be able to create a gameplan for the offense which Dalton felt comfortable in. Hill was a gem found a little too late to create the offense around it. Hue says it'll be a Pandora's box type of season for their offensive strategy, whatever that means. But maybe this season's strategy wont push Dalton beyond his limits trying to make something happen. 

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 01:53 AM)Stormborn Wrote: I'm talking about where they are now. The two get lumped together in comparisons sometimes.

True. Personally I think it's more productive to compare 2 similar QBs rather than compare Dalton to an elite QB then complain about Dalton being average.

Love the sig btw. 

[BengalChris]

(08-28-2015, 11:08 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Alex Smith used to be horrendous. All before the NFC West was the "elite" division its been n recent years. In fact during the time the NFC west was the weakest division, allowing the under .500 Seahawks take a playoff spot. Niner fans used to boo Smith and cry for Carr to start...But since Harbaugh and continuing into KC he's been solid. His performance of tonight's first half was what has seemed like a norm of his since the Harbaugh era. Dalton has performed better than Smith in his first 4 seasons. just saying the talk of "Dalton hasn't progressed one bit" is getting old. Perhaps he is just what he is: a game manager. But being just a "game manager" doesnt keep an offense from being potent, or a team from being successful.

All of the top QBs in the league are good game managers, even if their QBing talent varies. Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Luck, Manning, Eli, Rothesburger, Wilson, Flacco, Ryan, Stafford, etc. Those are my top 11 QBs currently, in no particular order.

Cutler has a big arm, but sucks at managing a game because he let's mistakes bitter his attitude. I compare Dalton to Cutler more than any other QB currently in the league and wouldn't call him a good game manager for the simple fact that he looses his head when things go wrong.

Now there are far worse game managers in the league. RGIII, Kaepernick, Johnny Midget, Geno Smith and some others.

What concerns me more than anything is that Dalton isn't improving while many other teams have improving QBs. Tannehill, Bridgewater, Newton and Carr could all end up outplaying Dalton this year. Tannehill clearly did last year.

Bengals making the playoffs is far from written in stone. An on the rise Miami or San Diego is all it would take to knock the Bengals out.

[GreenCornBengal]

I honestly believe that without 2 punt muffs in the NFC championship Alex Smith would have a super bowl ring right now.

The guy was playing lights out the season before he was replaced.

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 03:21 AM)BengalChris Wrote: All of the top QBs in the league are good game managers, even if their QBing talent varies. Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Luck, Manning, Eli, Rothesburger, Wilson, Flacco, Ryan, Stafford, etc. Those are my top 11 QBs currently, in no particular order.

Cutler has a big arm, but sucks at managing a game because he let's mistakes bitter his attitude. I compare Dalton to Cutler more than any other QB currently in the league and wouldn't call him a good game manager for the simple fact that he looses his head when things go wrong.

Now there are far worse game managers in the league. RGIII, Kaepernick, Johnny Midget, Geno Smith and some others.

What concerns me more than anything is that Dalton isn't improving while many other teams have improving QBs. Tannehill, Bridgewater, Newton and Carr could all end up outplaying Dalton this year. Tannehill clearly did last year.

Bengals making the playoffs is far from written in stone. An on the rise Miami or San Diego is all it would take to knock the Bengals out.

Solid points. I see the elites as obvious game managers too but they have the extra umph to go beyond. But the thing I see when things go wrong on offense with the Bengals usually are associated with an increased load on Dalton. When things are running smoothly or even ok on offense Dalton is usually playing very well and is more likely to shake off a bad throw. 

 San Diego seems like more of a threat to move beyond the bengals than Miami, IMO. I need to see more than one year of solid play to establish a QB has improved. I'm sure a bulk of us (me included) thought Dalton was poised for an amazing season last year coming off of his 2013 campaign.