Take a look at Smith before comments on Dalton

[magikod]

(08-28-2015, 11:23 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: They were pretty potent in 2013.  And this with Ben Jarvus as the starting RB.  

Mind=Blown 

[CornerBlitz]

People who compare Joe Flacco's ability and talent level with guys like Alex Smith and Andy Dalton are either bias or have no idea about football.

[Brownshoe]

(08-29-2015, 05:42 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: People who compare Joe Flacco's ability and talent level with guys like Alex Smith and Andy Dalton are either bias or have no idea about football.

You act like Joe Flacco is something special lol

[thegimp]

I can't believe everyone is still debating Dalton every single day. He is an average quarterback. He is not elite. He is not going to put a team on his back and win a championship. He isn't terrible. He is incredibly inconsistent. If he were to play to the top of his ability more often, he would be a very serviceable starter. Until then, he will continue to be an average quarterback, not the worst, not the best.

[Rhinocero23]

(08-29-2015, 05:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Joe Flacco is something special lol

Great point, Flacco is not really a "special" QB.
As a interesting point to think about...how many NFL GM's would replace their starting QB with Flacco? My guess is less than 1/2...I would say thst is a conservative but fair guess.

Now ponder this...of the 32 NFL GM's (including MB) how many if given the chance would take Dalton over Flacco to be the QB of their team? If you are being unbiased you know the answer is 0.
Your statement to slam Flacco really points out how inadequate Dalton's QB skills really are. All Corner was saying is that Smith and Dalton should not be compared to Flacco because Flacco is a better QB in every tangible and intangible category. As you pointed out Flacco is not very special...what does that make the other two?

[Luvnit2]

(08-29-2015, 09:48 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Great point, Flacco is not really a "special" QB.
As a interesting point to think about...how many NFL GM's would replace their starting QB with Flacco? My guess is less than 1/2...I would say thst is a conservative but fair guess.

Now ponder this...of the 32 NFL GM's (including MB) how many if given the chance would take Dalton over Flacco to be the QB of their team? If you are being unbiased you know the answer is 0.
Your statement to slam Flacco really points out how inadequate Dalton's QB skills really are. All Corner was saying is that Smith and Dalton should not be compared to Flacco because Flacco is a better QB in every tangible and intangible category. As you pointed out Flacco is not very special...what does that make the other two?

Be careful using won and lost number to prove a point of the opposing team.

Your stats tell me Dalton has played teams with a winning record almost 50% of the games he played. My guess is that is a high  number to the norm of NFL QB's and my guess guys like Ryan, Brees, Luck and others percent of teams played against winning teams is less than AD. Inn other words, it appears AD has played stiffer competition than many others.

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 05:42 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: People who compare Joe Flacco's ability and talent level with guys like Alex Smith and Andy Dalton are either bias or have no idea about football.

Talent wise. Still amazing how someone who has that edge in the talent department was and is still playing a similar style to how Smith played under Harbaugh, but has a bigger arm for the big gainer. 

[Daddy-O]

(08-29-2015, 12:21 AM)oncemoreuntothejimbreech Wrote: Look at the list of Super Bowl winning teams. Look at the winning team's QB. How many of the winners had a QB better than Dalton?  How many of the winners had a QB worse than Dalton?

When I look at the list, Dalton doesn't seem to be in the same group of the majority of those QBs. Is it possible to win with Dalton?  Yeah, it's possible. But, with the size of his contract it will be difficult to invest in a supporting cast necessary to win with a QB of his caliber.

Dalton is essentially Eli Manning without the Super Bowl wins.  Manning, like Dalton, can look great but when he's bad he's really bad.  It's the highs and lows of mediocrity.  The difference is Manning has those 2 championships and thus granted a free career pass.

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 08:53 AM)thegimp Wrote: I can't believe everyone is still debating Dalton every single day.  He is an average quarterback.  He is not elite.  He is not going to put a team on his back and win a championship.  He isn't terrible.  He is incredibly inconsistent.  If he were to play to the top of his ability more often, he would be a very serviceable starter.  Until then, he will continue to be an average quarterback, not the worst, not the best.

The top of Dalton's ability we've seen was 2013, and that was better than being just a serviceable starter. If he played at that level or had that performance with fewer turnovers because of some gameplan change, he'd be more than an average QB as you're saying. Smith's early seasons were more inconsistent and overall, uglier, than Dalton's. But look at the immediate change to his potential and shown ability with the change of focus on offense;  this isn't a thread to say Dalton would put anyone on his back. It is an observation of how a below-average Smith became a core piece to the offense because of the way Harbaugh didn't push Smith to be the guy who put the team on his back. 

[Element]

We just compared a rotten apple to another rotten apple. Yeah I'm not impressed with either

[Whatever]

(08-29-2015, 08:53 AM)thegimp Wrote: I can't believe everyone is still debating Dalton every single day.  He is an average quarterback.  He is not elite.  He is not going to put a team on his back and win a championship.  He isn't terrible.  He is incredibly inconsistent.  If he were to play to the top of his ability more often, he would be a very serviceable starter.  Until then, he will continue to be an average quarterback, not the worst, not the best.

Problem is, Dalton is a lot better than average, but the perception is that he sucks. Look at the first round QB's that have been drafted since Dalton came into the league...

Definite Upgrade-Cam Newton, Andrew Luck,

Same Tier-Ryan Tannehill, Blake Bortles, Teddy Bridgewater

Downgrade-Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, Christian Ponder, Robert Griffin III, Brandon Wesson, EJ Manuel, Johnny Manziel

And that's being generous to the other QB's. Truth is, if Dalton was so mediocre, he would be a lot easier to upgrade over. Odds are however, if we dumped Dalton next year, we would in all likelihood get worse at QB and have very slim odds of getting an appreciable upgrade at the position.

[Rhinocero23]

(08-29-2015, 10:10 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Be careful using won and lost number to prove a point of the opposing team.

Your stats tell me Dalton has played teams with a winning record almost 50% of the games he played. My guess is that is a high  number to the norm of NFL QB's and my guess guys like Ryan, Brees, Luck and others percent of teams played against winning teams is less than AD. Inn other words, it appears AD has played stiffer competition than many others.

I see what you are saying. I am looking at a very sanitized set of numbers...they might not mean very much. I just find it interesting. 

To the point you were trying to make. These Bengals (from 2011 till now) have faced teams with a winning record 43% of the time (at the time of the game). However they lose those game at a rate of 53%. 

They have succeeded against teams with a combined record of 144-169 
They have been unsuccessful against teams with a combined record of 140-97

I am of the mind set that to beat good teams on a regular basis you need a QB that can take the game over. I do not see any evidence that Andy can be that guy. Other than one stretch in 2013 (they beat NE, Bills, Lions, and Jets) this team has never beaten 3 teams with a winning record before suffering a defeat. Unfortunately for us Bengals fans this team will not get the luxury of facing teams with a sub .500 record in the playoffs. I do not see them making a run through the gauntlet given the results of the past. Luckily the past is a predictor of future performance, not a guarantee of it!

My issue with the most ardent Dalton fans is because he is a Bengal they seem to be blind to his obvious inadequacies. Look I get it...it's hard to admit when your kid is ugly...that is where third party perspective comes into play. The reason there is a Dalton Scale is because he is not viewed as good...period. People that lump his name in with any of the top 20 QB's are insane. Then you have that group that mentions him with the likes of Manning and Marino...lol...that is turely comical.  

I root for the Bengals every time they take the field...every player (including & especially Dalton)! I am a Bengals fan first then a supporter of the player second. The whole must be greater than the sum of it parts. When you have a part that does not allow this to happen you must replace the part. To support Dalton as the answer to this point is to root against the success of the organization in my mind. Every time a fan says I can't wait till we win one (1) playoff game so that everyone will get off Dalton's back makes me SMFH. Why would any fan of the team think like that? 

I know Wyche's Warrior will point to Marvin in all of this and I agree...Marvin is not a "beat the best" kind of guy either. I do however believe this team over the past 4 seasons with any other top tier QB (pick the name) under Marvin as the coach would have a far better record against quality opponents. I believe they would have playoff success to the extent of possibly being a SB winner. 

This team with the combo of this QB & HC does not have the gas or ass to make that run to the SB. 
This team with the combo of a Top QB & this HC could be a super bowl winner.
This team with the combo of this QB & a Top HC....maybe more successful against quality teams but not a super bowl team. 

Wins (W-L record at time of game)

2011

Cleveland Browns      0-0 (AFCN)
Buffalo Bills                 3-0
Jacksonville Jaguars   1-3
Indianapolis Colts       0-5
Seattle Seahawks       2-4
Tennessee Titans        4-3
Cleveland Browns       4-6 (AFCN)
St. Louis Rams            2-11
Arizona Cardinals          7-7

2012

Cleveland Browns          0-1 (AFCN)
Washington Redskins    1-1
Jacksonville Jaguars       1-2
New York Giants             6-3
Kansas City Chiefs          1-8
Oakland Raiders             3-7
San Diego Chargers       4-7
Philadelphia Eagles          4-9  (Thurs)
Pittsburgh Steelers         7-7 (AFCN)
Baltimore Ravens          10-5 (AFCN)

2013

Pittsburgh Steelers      0-1 (AFCN) (Mon)
Green Bay Packers        1-1
New England Patriots  4-0
Buffalo Bills                    2-3
Detroit Lions                 4-2
New York Jets               4-3
Cleveland Browns        4-5 (AFCN)
San Diego Chargers     5-6
Indianapolis Colts        8-4
Minnesota Vikings      4-9-1
Baltimore Ravens       8-7 (AFCN)

2014

Baltimore Ravens      0-0 (AFCN)
Atlanta Falcons          1-0
Tennessee Titans      1-1
Carolina Panthers      3-1
Baltimore Ravens      5-2 (AFCN)
Jacksonville Jaguars  1-7
New Orleans Saints  4-5
Houston Texans         5-5
Buccaneers                 2-9
Cleveland Browns     7-6 (AFCN)
Denver Broncos        11-3 (Mon)
 
 
 

---

 

Loss (W-L record at time of game)

2011
Denver Broncos          0-1
San Francisco 49ers   1-1
Pittsburgh Steelers     6-3 (AFCN)
Baltimore Ravens       6-3 (AFCN)
Pittsburgh Steelers     8-3 (AFCN)
Houston Texans         9-3
Baltimore Ravens       11-4 (AFCN)
Houston Texans         10-6 (Playoff)

2012

Baltimore Ravens      0-0 (AFCN) (Mon)
Miami Dolphins          1-3
Cleveland Browns      0-5 (AFCN)
Pittsburgh Steelers    2-3 (AFCN)
Denver Broncos        4-3
Dallas Cowboys         6-6
Houston Texans       12-4 (Playoff)

2013

Chicago Bears           0-0
Cleveland Browns     1-2 (AFCN)
Miami Dolphins         3-4 (Thurs)
Baltimore Ravens      3-5 (AFCN)
Pittsburgh Steelers    5-8 (AFCN)
San Diego Chargers   9-7 (Playoff)

2014

New England Patriots     2-2
Carolina Panthers           3-1
Indianapolis Colts            4-2
Cleveland Browns           6-3 (AFCN) (Thurs)
Pittsburgh Steelers         7-5 (AFCN)
Pittsburgh Steelers        10-5 (ACFN)
Indianapolis Colts          11-5 (Playoff)

[CornerBlitz]

(08-29-2015, 05:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Joe Flacco is something special lol

Talent wise he is much better than guys like Alex Smith and Dalton. That was my point. As others have mentioned you ask all the GMs in the league who they'd rather have and without question all of them take Flacco over Dalton.

He also looked pretty damn special during that SB run...didn't he? Hard to slam a SB MVP if u ask me especially when compared to a guy like Dalton who has had nothing but inferior play in the playoffs.

[Shake n Blake]

With the way the rest of the team has played in the playoffs, they're going to need better than an Alex Smith or Flacco type QB to win in the playoffs.

Flacco has been great in the playoffs over the last few years, but he's also had some really good play around him. Can't say the same for Dalton.

[Rhinocero23]

(08-29-2015, 02:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: With the way the rest of the team has played in the playoffs, they're going to need better than an Alex Smith or Flacco type QB to win in the playoffs.

Flacco has been great in the playoffs over the last few years, but he's also had some really good play around him. Can't say the same for Dalton.

Do you think that maybe those Flacco led teams were playing up to the level of the  player in the most important position on the field? 

Some guys lead and inspire while other are just there to be pulled along. 

[McC]

(08-29-2015, 05:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Joe Flacco is something special lol

He's not really special.  But he put together one helluva timely special run.  And such is a legacy made.

As Bill Parcells said, "For the rest of your life, nobody can ever tell you that you couldn't do it."

[*Nately120*]

(08-29-2015, 05:57 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Joe Flacco is something special lol

Meh, when you compare the number of QBs the NFL has had in the past 50 years and then realize Flake-O is within a small group to be Super Bowl MVP's you might have to consider that "special" in a sense.  Or not.  You can pretend it didn't happen, I guess.  I'm no Flake-O fan, but to act like he's never done a thing to set himself apart from the doldrums is bias at its finest.

The guy has one more Super Bowl win and twice the playoff wins the Bengals had in their 46 year existence. If Flake-O is nothing special what does that say about us? Ouch.

[thegimp]

(08-29-2015, 11:13 AM)type_stripe Wrote: The top of Dalton's ability we've seen was 2013, and that was better than being just a serviceable starter. If he played at that level or had that performance with fewer turnovers because of some gameplan change, he'd be more than an average QB as you're saying. Smith's early seasons were more inconsistent and overall, uglier, than Dalton's. But look at the immediate change to his potential and shown ability with the change of focus on offense;  this isn't a thread to say Dalton would put anyone on his back. It is an observation of how a below-average Smith became a core piece to the offense because of the way Harbaugh didn't push Smith to be the guy who put the team on his back. 

I think we are saying the same thing, we may just disagree on whether Dalton can play at his 2013 level consistently. A change in skeem may help, but one of his greatest strengths, pre snap reads, is his greatest weakness. He makes a presnap read, but when he is wrong, he doesn't make the proper adjustments. Game plan won't change that, coaching and reps will. He shows flashes of greatness, but his inconsistency makes him average, but I am not one who thinks he is easily replaceable. It's not easy to replace four straight playoffs, regardless of the results in those playoff games

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2015, 09:48 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Now ponder this...of the 32 NFL GM's (including MB) how many if given the chance would take Dalton over Flacco to be the QB of their team? If you are being unbiased you know the answer is 0.

Not true. I'm pretty sure the Bengals' GM would take Dalton over Flacco.

(08-29-2015, 02:29 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Do you think that maybe those Flacco led teams were playing up to the level of the  player in the most important position on the field? 

Some guys lead and inspire while other are just there to be pulled along. 

You do realize that in his first few playoff games, Flacco played WORSE than Dalton has, yet the Ravens still won, right?

[*Nately120*]

(08-29-2015, 03:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not true. I'm pretty sure the Bengals' GM would take Dalton over Flacco.


You do realize that in his first few playoff games, Flacco played WORSE than Dalton has, yet the Ravens still won, right?

Yea yea, and Pig Ben won a Super Bowl with a rating of 22.6 so no QB who is able to grip a football should be ruled out of winning a Super Bowl. Plus, Flacco's 2nd game as a rookie in the playoffs was technically better than any of Dalton's, so I still don't get where people get the idea that Flacco's play as a rookie is notably worse than Dalton's 1 TD and 8 turnovers.