Take a look at Smith before comments on Dalton

[Rhinocero23]

(08-29-2015, 03:31 PM)PhilHos Wrote: Not true. I'm pretty sure the Bengals' GM would take Dalton over Flacco.


You do realize that in his first few playoff games, Flacco played WORSE than Dalton has, yet the Ravens still won, right?

Why are you sure the Bengals brass would take Dalton over Flacco if they had a choice? 

Are you basing it off the fact the the Bengals have had zero post-season success under this "GM" and would continue to be failures with this that type of decision? 

To your second point...believing a QB who is struggling but has the ability to be better may be something a team can overcome.

A team that sees the QB playing at his best against good teams and is struggling would probably be demoralized. As many on here have tried to point out Dalton last two playoff games were not too bad for Dalton...just not good enough to win. That has to deflate your team, coaches and fans. 

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 04:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yea yea, and Pig Ben won a Super Bowl with a rating of 22.6 so no QB who is able to grip a football should be ruled out of winning a Super Bowl.  Plus, Flacco's 2nd game as a rookie in the playoffs was technically better than any of Dalton's, so I still don't get where people get the idea that Flacco's play as a rookie is notably worse than Dalton's 1 TD and 8 turnovers.

But why does the QB's below average performance automatically equal no chance at big wins? In a team sport with 22 starters, if 1 player doesn't perform up to his expectations in a game, it is up to the other 21 guys to bust their asses to win. Regardless if this is a QB driven league or not, the team needs to perform. Not saying any QB can win, but a solid game manager under ceneter should be enough for the TEAM to be good enough to win, especially if there is talent spread across the positions.  

[*Nately120*]

(08-29-2015, 04:11 PM)type_stripe Wrote: But why does the QB's below average performance automatically equal no chance at big wins? In a team sport with 22 starters, if 1 player doesn't perform up to his expectations in a game, it is up to the other 21 guys to bust their asses to win. Regardless if this is a QB driven league or not, the team needs to perform. Not saying any QB can win, but a solid game manager under ceneter should be enough for the TEAM to be good enough to win, especially if there is talent spread across the positions.  

It doesn't equal NO CHANCE, but Flacco and Pig Ben, and pretty much any QB who has managed to win despite a crap performance has also managed to win in the post-season due to a good or great performance, so it happens.  You make your own luck.  Maybe Dalton can play like crap in the playoffs for his entire career and eventually win one, but he could up his odds by playing better couldn't he?

Again, Rex Grossman made it to a Super Bowl despite being a crappier QB than Dalton BUT he's also managed to be better than Dalton in the playoffs, as well.  The short of it is that any QB we can think of winning in the post-season despite a lousy performance has also played better than Dalton in the playoffs.  Ben, Flacco, Dilfer, Johnson, Grossman, Eli, Krapernick, Alex Smith...all had better post-season games than Dalton. Either as a whole, or on the individual level. Even Dilfer wasn't throwing 4 INTs a game while the Ravens literally dragged him across the finish line, though we like to pretend that was the case. Today's NFL and our team isn't designed to play with a QB who only throws the ball 16 times per game. If that's the goal then we need to make some significant changes.

Look, I'll bet my left nut that if we ever win with Dalton in the post-season it's going to be the game where he manages to throw more TDs than TOs and he has a rating above 70.  I'm not saying Dalton is the only reason we lose or win, but he might want to up his game if he wants to get that win just to play it safe.

[CornerBlitz]

(08-29-2015, 02:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, when you compare the number of QBs the NFL has had in the past 50 years and then realize Flake-O is within a small group to be Super Bowl MVP's you might have to consider that "special" in a sense.  Or not.  You can pretend it didn't happen, I guess.  I'm no Flake-O fan, but to act like he's never done a thing to set himself apart from the doldrums is bias at its finest.

The guy has one more Super Bowl win and twice the playoff wins the Bengals had in their 46 year existence.  If Flake-O is nothing special what does that say about us?  Ouch.

Damn good response.

[Brownshoe]

(08-29-2015, 02:15 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Talent wise he is much better than guys like Alex Smith and Dalton. That was my point. As others have mentioned you ask all the GMs in the league who they'd rather have and without question all of them take Flacco over Dalton.

He also looked pretty damn special during that SB run...didn't he? Hard to slam a SB MVP if u ask me especially when compared to a guy like Dalton who has had nothing but inferior play in the playoffs.

That SB run is the only thing he can hang is hat on. Good job you looked good 3 games in a row.

(08-29-2015, 02:53 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Meh, when you compare the number of QBs the NFL has had in the past 50 years and then realize Flake-O is within a small group to be Super Bowl MVP's you might have to consider that "special" in a sense.  Or not.  You can pretend it didn't happen, I guess.  I'm no Flake-O fan, but to act like he's never done a thing to set himself apart from the doldrums is bias at its finest.

The guy has one more Super Bowl win and twice the playoff wins the Bengals had in their 46 year existence.  If Flake-O is nothing special what does that say about us?  Ouch.

Flacco didn't play well in the playoffs until his 5th year in the league. Flacco's first 5 playoff games he was 1 TD to 6 INTs (familiar huh?) he only had over 50% completions once in those 5 games, in those 5 games he didn't have over 200 yards in any, for the people who like passer rating he had 2 games lower than 20 rating in his first 5 games, but he still won 3 out of the 5. He had an amazing Superbowl run, and that's about it. In the regular season he hasn't done anything special, unless you want to say that having more INTs than TDs is another kind of special.

[Bengal Jells]

I feel like Dalton is the best answer for this season, not sold on AJ, not sure how anyone could be. If somehow we tanked this season, we got to draft a qb in the first tho if there is any stand outs.

[BengalChris]

(08-29-2015, 04:15 AM)type_stripe Wrote: Solid points. I see the elites as obvious game managers too but they have the extra umph to go beyond. But the thing I see when things go wrong on offense with the Bengals usually are associated with an increased load on Dalton. When things are running smoothly or even ok on offense Dalton is usually playing very well and is more likely to shake off a bad throw. 

 San Diego seems like more of a threat to move beyond the bengals than Miami, IMO. I need to see more than one year of solid play to establish a QB has improved. I'm sure a bulk of us (me included) thought Dalton was poised for an amazing season last year coming off of his 2013 campaign. 

Absolutely with regards to the top QBs.

Dalton just isn't up to taking that extra load. Someone else has to step up, but no one does.

Tannehill has some new weapons to work with finally and I list them as a definite playoff contender. Tannehill has improved every year and Hartline was his most productive WR. If Hartline would have been our top producer at WR I guarantee you fans here would have been demanding an upgrade.

[Bengalholic]

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

[Rhinocero23]

(08-29-2015, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: zs

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

Agreed!

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: zs

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

I agree, but unless the new guy is a naturally born elite taken in the draft or from some free agency move, there will probably still be 1-2 more seasons of Dalton under center until the new kid would be ready.

[BengalChris]

(08-29-2015, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: zs

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

Yeah, pretty much agree. I really believe this team making the playoffs this year is incredibly iffy the way they are not fixing anything while telling themselves that they are. I was dumb founded last week witnessing all of the mistakes from last year being played right in front of my eyes, only yards away.

[Brownshoe]

(08-29-2015, 07:30 PM)type_stripe Wrote: I agree, but unless the new guy is a naturally born elite taken in the draft or from some free agency move, there will probably still be 1-2 more seasons of Dalton under center until the new kid would be ready.

We would have to tank this season to pickup a good QB. The only QB who I think will even be that good in the NFL in next years draft is Jared Goff, and I still don't think he could start over Dalton.

[BengalChris]

(08-29-2015, 07:37 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: We would have to tank this season to pickup a good QB. The only QB who I think will even be that good in the NFL in next years draft is Jared Goff, and I still don't think he could start over Dalton.

Maybe. We could have drafted Bridgewater or Derek Carr two years ago. And maybe, just maybe McCarron gets a shot during the season this year to show us what he can do. Another Cleveland game and we could see just that. The clock is ticking on Lewis' legacy as a HC and I'm thinking the leash on Dalton has gotten significantly shorter.

[Brownshoe]

(08-29-2015, 07:46 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Maybe. We could have drafted Bridgewater or Derek Carr two years ago. And maybe, just maybe McCarron gets a shot during the season this year to show us what he can do. Another Cleveland game and we could see just that. The clock is ticking on Lewis' legacy as a HC and I'm thinking the leash on Dalton has gotten significantly shorter.

You act like Dalton is a bum QB. Dalton has a couple of bad games a year, but what QB doesn't have those that's not elite? Dalton didn't get drafted to the best team, or even close to it. The Bengals were a pretty bad team a few years ago, but Dalton turned it around. We lost our top 2 WRs and Benson was on the decline in 2011. 2013 was the first year Dalton had legit weapons, and he looked really good that year. Last year the only 2 offensive skilled players who started every game was Dalton, and Sanu. The defense didn't play that great either, but we still managed 10 wins (should have been 11). You can't do that unless the QB was doing something right.

[type_stripe]

(08-29-2015, 07:57 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Dalton is a bum QB. Dalton has a couple of bad games a year, but what QB doesn't have those that's not elite? Dalton didn't get drafted to the best team, or even close to it. The Bengals were a pretty bad team a few years ago, but Dalton turned it around. We lost our top 2 WRs and Benson was on the decline in 2011. 2013 was the first year Dalton had legit weapons, and he looked really good that year. Last year the only 2 offensive skilled players who started every game was Dalton, and Sanu. The defense didn't play that great either, but we still managed 10 wins (should have been 11). You can't do that unless the QB was doing something right.

It is hard to deny the situation the offense was in. Hill wasn't really utilized until about week 9. And we didn't have the best wr depth. Could have altered hue's game plan early especially with Eifert's injury. but if that is the case we should see a difference this season. As long as players don't miss games at the same time as each other. Health will be key for success.

[BengalChris]

(08-29-2015, 07:57 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: You act like Dalton is a bum QB. Dalton has a couple of bad games a year, but what QB doesn't have those that's not elite? Dalton didn't get drafted to the best team, or even close to it. The Bengals were a pretty bad team a few years ago, but Dalton turned it around. We lost our top 2 WRs and Benson was on the decline in 2011. 2013 was the first year Dalton had legit weapons, and he looked really good that year. Last year the only 2 offensive skilled players who started every game was Dalton, and Sanu. The defense didn't play that great either, but we still managed 10 wins (should have been 11). You can't do that unless the QB was doing something right.

I don't think he's a bum QB, but I see no evidence that he should be the QB long term either. Not recognizing the excuses about Dalton's weapons. Brady doesn't make any, nor does Rodgers or Brees. The fact that we hear the excuses is evidence of the lower ability all unto itself.

Why shouldn't we work to develop depth at the position and let the best one win the starting job. We do that with every other position. McCarron is scaring the Dalton homers cause he doesn't lose his head. Didn't last week and he out played Cutler tonight.

[Shake n Blake]

(08-29-2015, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

I would agree with that. We need a new HC and that HC should be able to pick his own QB.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2015, 04:00 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yea yea, and Pig Ben won a Super Bowl with a rating of 22.6 so no QB who is able to grip a football should be ruled out of winning a Super Bowl.  Plus, Flacco's 2nd game as a rookie in the playoffs was technically better than any of Dalton's, so I still don't get where people get the idea that Flacco's play as a rookie is notably worse than Dalton's 1 TD and 8 turnovers.

First off, it's not just his rookie year. It's his first 2 seasons in the playoffs.

But to answer your question, it's because even including his 2nd playoff game, Flacco has a lower QB rating in his first 5 games (46.5) than Dalton in his first 4 (57.8).

[Benton]

I wouldn't consider ad a game manager. When I think of game managers I think of guys like Kerry Collins or Hasselbeck. Guys he didn't turn the ball over a lot but also didn't make a lot of big plays. Guys who couldn't throw it across the field, but could read all the options.

[*PhilHos*]

(08-29-2015, 07:14 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

Ickey Woods: "This is the year we must win a playoff game or it's time to start looking in a different direction at the QB spot" #Bengals

— Coley Harvey (@ColeyHarvey) August 29, 2015

Do you guys agree or disagree with Ickey's statement?

I would add the head coach as well.

Depends on Dalton's play. If he plays as he has in the past, I would not be averse to a new QB, but it better be a proven upgrade if it's a veteran or a top rated rookie.If Dalton plays great, but we still lose then why get a new QB?

If we lose the playoff game, regardless of QB play, I think we should get a new HC, though.