Football Life - Carson Palmer

[Catmandude123]

(09-20-2018, 06:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: He was a top 3 QB in AZ in 2015 and he led the NFL in a number of passing categories while winning 13 games.  You don't have to like the guy, but he was a pretty good QB and it's quite telling that the Bengals couldn't get a single playoff win with him at the helm (much like they have yet to get one with a pretty good QB in Dalton at the helm).

Again, this just seems like one of those things where people are more interested in their feelings than the actual reality of a situation.

I'm not complaining . I'm actually glad to not have to watch pick six Palmer throwing errant passes his whole career. We are still effected by that trade because we ended up with Dre and Gio. All things considered the current team won more without him than they would have with him.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-20-2018, 02:22 PM)sandwedge Wrote: If you saw his media day presser this year, it will put things in perspective. He hates, can't stand change. He believes it takes to long to come about. To him if you have a plan you stick with it, maybe tweak it here and there. 

 Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Wyche clash with Brown back in the day wanting changes and was promptly shown the door?

You're not wrong..... :andy:

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(09-21-2018, 12:05 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He signed the extension in his 3rd year. First year, they almost made the playoffs. Second year was his first year starting. His third year, they made the playoffs and he was considered a top 3 QB. 

After signing the contract, he played 5 more years. One of them 4-11-1 and another 4-12. It's not like he was some Bengals historian. I doubt he knew anything about the Bengals other than what might have been told to him, and those first 3 years were nothing like that previous 12 for the Bengals. It was the following 5 years when they were, at best, average that did it. 

I'm not making excuses for him, those are just the facts.

Exactly.....lots of folks act like he signed the extension and then left the next day.  He didn't even know what the AFCN was.....let alone the Bengals history.

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2018, 07:23 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I'm not complaining . I'm actually glad to not have to watch pick six Palmer throwing errant passes his whole career. We are still effected by that trade because we ended up with Dre and Gio. All things considered the current team won more without him than they would have with him.

You missed the part where I make a point to say that both Palmer and Dalton have been good enough to achieve far more than the Bengals get out of them.  But hey, whatever...Carson Palmer hit you right in the feelings and feelings matter more than reality for some people.  It's ok, I'll just keep those mean old stats away from you and you can believe whatever you like. Sometimes I get Carson Palmer and Jamarcus Russel mixed up, even.

Here is a little something for your trouble:

[Hoofhearted]

(09-21-2018, 12:05 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: He signed the extension in his 3rd year. First year, they almost made the playoffs. Second year was his first year starting. His third year, they made the playoffs and he was considered a top 3 QB. 

After signing the contract, he played 5 more years. One of them 4-11-1 and another 4-12. It's not like he was some Bengals historian. I doubt he knew anything about the Bengals other than what might have been told to him, and those first 3 years were nothing like that previous 12 for the Bengals. It was the following 5 years when they were, at best, average that did it. 

I'm not making excuses for him, those are just the facts.

So he didn't know anything about how the Bengals operated being there that long? Even if he wasn't a Bengals historian, it wasn't that hard to figure out. At least I hope.

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2018, 10:29 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: So he didn't know anything about how the Bengals operated being there that long? Even if he wasn't a Bengals historian, it wasn't that hard to figure out. At least I hope.

I get what you are saying, but in all fairness hasn't MB and the Bengals as an organization improved slightly in the way they do things since 2003?  In a way I don't think it was completely crazy for Carson, or Bengals fans to think that experiencing the first winning season in the MB era and seeing the excitement, increased interest/revenue, and national recognition the team received as a result would have so little effect on things.

Winning seems to be addictive for most owners/GMs, but the issue is that the type of winning to which MB is addicted doesn't place the on the field product at the forefront.  That's my take, at least...I don't claim to know everything that goes on with the Bengals (and I never will because I'm not a family member).

It almost looks like MB takes both winning and losing as evidence to "stay the course" and not shake things up. When we are bad we need to stay consistent and not get into that QB and HC carousel all bad teams go to, and when we are even remotely good (as in last year) we have evidence that things are going the right direction and we should stay the course. Maybe the success we had in 2005 convinced MB that his methods from 1991 onward were always sound and finally paid off.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-20-2018, 10:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The answer to both these posts is the same. Carson said he expected change. IIRC, he even said that Mikey said he'd work on things. It didn't happen. 

My point exactly. 

Absolutely nothing changed. From the time he was drafted until the time he left, it was MB doing business as usual. Did Carson really think some hot-shot college kid would come around and change an ego-driven owner into changing what he's been doing for a decade or more? 

[*Synric*]

(09-14-2018, 11:12 PM)KansasBengal Wrote: Basically that MB made him promises to invest in the team but wouldn’t. That they argued about getting a GM and things to modernize the franchise. Had cap space and wouldn’t spend it to fill holes. All the stuff we complain about here all the time. Seemed like his patience ran out and that’s why he “retired”

Didnt the Bengals put in a state of the art weight room and spent more money in Free Agency that year than years before or after until this 2018 season?

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2018, 10:37 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: My point exactly. 

Absolutely nothing changed. From the time he was drafted until the time he left, it was MB doing business as usual. Did Carson really think some hot-shot college kid would come around and change an ego-driven owner into changing what he's been doing for a decade or more? 

Ha, maybe.  When MB took over the Bengals the Patriots, the Saints, and the Colts were garbage franchises that seemed to have no shot in hell at ever winning the SB.  Like I said, it's not insane to think that going from a complete joke of a franchise to legit contender would cause a man to change his attitude a bit.  Lord knows we fans were stupid enough to think that we'd finally turned a corner in 2005.  And then we thought we finally turned a corner in 2011.  This year?  Well, we are 2-0 and the Steelers look awful so we are thinking a deep playoff run is in the cards.

Are we insane?  Time will tell.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-21-2018, 10:34 AM)Nately120 Wrote: I get what you are saying, but in all fairness hasn't MB and the Bengals as an organization improved slightly in the way they do things since 2003?  In a way I don't think it was completely crazy for Carson, or Bengals fans to think that experiencing the first winning season in the MB era and seeing the excitement, increased interest/revenue, and national recognition the team received as a result would have so little effect on things.

Winning seems to be addictive for most owners/GMs, but the issue is that the type of winning to which MB is addicted doesn't place the on the field product at the forefront.  That's my take, at least...I don't claim to know everything that goes on with the Bengals (and I never will because I'm not a family member).

It almost looks like MB takes both winning and losing as evidence to "stay the course" and not shake things up.  When we are bad we need to stay consistent and not get into that QB and HC carousel all bad teams go, and when we are even remotely good (as in last year) we have evidence that things are going the right direction and we should stay the course.  Maybe the success we had in 2005 convinced MB that his methods from 1991 onward were always sound and finally paid off.

yes sir, I think they have got better since 03. And to be completely honest, that year we did what exactly?

Hired ML. I attribute a lot of our turnaround to ML. As I said in an earlier post, just look at the stats before he was here and since he's been here. Night and day difference, even if we haven't won a PO game. And remember some of the posts of when Housh was here and they had to share jock straps before ML? Just small snippets into what I believe is a ML turnaround to the culture of this team. 

[Hoofhearted]

(09-21-2018, 10:44 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Ha, maybe.  When MB took over the Bengals the Patriots, the Saints, and the Colts were garbage franchises that seemed to have no shot in hell at ever winning the SB.  Like I said, it's not insane to think that going from a complete joke of a franchise to legit contender would cause a man to change his attitude a bit.  Lord knows we fans were stupid enough to think that we'd finally turned a corner in 2005.  And then we thought we finally turned a corner in 2011.  This year?  Well, we are 2-0 and the Steelers look awful so we are thinking a deep playoff run is in the cards.

Are we insane?  Time will tell.

I totally think people can change if they are willing to put that necessary effort to do so 

So I totally think MB can win a SB if he really, really wants to. 

This is the year! IT's been different than any other year I can remember. 




damn-it, I fell for it again, didn't I? 

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2018, 10:45 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: yes sir, I think they have got better since 03. And to be completely honest, that year we did what exactly?

Hired ML. I attribute a lot of our turnaround to ML. As I said in an earlier post, just look at the stats before he was here and since he's been here. Night and day difference, even if we haven't won a PO game. And remember some of the posts of when Housh was here and they had to share jock straps before ML? Just small snippets into what I believe is a ML turnaround to the culture of this team. 

ML is responsible for turning things around here yes...that's probably why he, like Carson, publicly declared that he was walking away from this franchise unless certain changes were made on multiple occasions.  After the 2010 season both Carson and Marvin went public about being done with the Bengals unless changes happened.  This is clearly a necessary evil when dealing with MB, even if it hurts Bengals' fans feelings that people don't want to just blindly follow MB into a deathtrap.

I'm a little biased though, since I actually had a point in my career where I disagreed with an employer and I had enough leverage to sit at home and get paid until they held up their end of the deal and I got what I wanted and moved on to a better job with a better organization 6 months before the organization collapsed due to its own incompetence.  I was so mean.

[*Synric*]

Pete Brown was also a major part of team desicions along with Mike...and later Katie. In fact I believe Pete was a major part of the Scouting and General Manager discussions.

[Hoofhearted]

(09-21-2018, 10:41 AM)Synric Wrote: Didnt the Bengals put in a state of the art weight room and spent more money in Free Agency that year than years before or after until this 2018 season?

Wasn't that in 2015? Found this link and it looks like they did lockers and cafe.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

Forbes just released the value of all the franchises and it CLEARLY shows that Mike Brown is useless at business.

https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#tab:overall

3rd lowest, below the Browns lol

As i have said before many times, he is clueless at how to add value to his franchise, he is just riding the NFL coattails (literally at the hind end), so he has saved a few million per year but it has cost him $500M in franchise value. The guy is a clown on business terms.

[fredtoast]

(09-21-2018, 12:08 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Forbes just released the value of all the franchises and it CLEARLY shows that Mike Brown is useless at business.

https://www.forbes.com/nfl-valuations/list/#tab:overall

3rd lowest, below the Browns lol

As i have said before many times, he is clueless at how to add value to his franchise, he is just riding the NFL coattails (literally at the hind end), so he has saved a few million per year but it has cost him $500M in franchise value. The guy is a clown on business terms.

Team value has a lot to do with the size of the market the team is in.

This list also shows that the Bengals generate more income than six other teams that have a higher "value".  Browns income ($31 mil) is half of Bengals ($60 mil).

Also a lot of these teams have value that is pumped up by debt.  For example Raiders have a higher total value ($2.4 bil) than Bengals ($1.8 Bil) but a third of the Raiders value (33%) is supported by debt while only 6% of the Bengals is.

[Catmandude123]

(09-21-2018, 10:17 AM)Nately120 Wrote: You missed the part where I make a point to say that both Palmer and Dalton have been good enough to achieve far more than the Bengals get out of them.  But hey, whatever...Carson Palmer hit you right in the feelings and feelings matter more than reality for some people.  It's ok, I'll just keep those mean old stats away from you and you can believe whatever you like.  Sometimes I get Carson Palmer and Jamarcus Russel mixed up, even.

Here is a little something for your trouble:

Hey don't let me hurt your feelings. I was just stating my perspective. I have a different opinion of Palmer than you but that's cool cause this forum would be pretty boring if that was the case. 

[*Nately120*]

(09-21-2018, 01:31 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Hey don't let me hurt your feelings. I was just stating my perspective. I have a different opinion of Palmer than you but that's cool cause this forum would be pretty boring if that was the case. 

My feelings aren't hurt.  Your perspective is based upon your feelings, and mine is based upon actual facts and statistics.  I realize it's a fool's errand, but any time Palmer is brought up someone always says that he only had one good year in the NFL and when I point out that that is factually incorrect I get a reply along the lines of "Well, I don't care!" or something else that is an admission that the person is happy to just be incorrect.  Fair enough.  By the way, I hate the Steelers so they've never won the Super Bowl. That's my belief and opinion, so it's apparently as valid as anything that actually occurred in real life.

I'm used to it.  I live in Steeler country and people around here refuse to believe Andy Dalton ever had a good year either, no matter what the numbers, the tape, and the W/L column says.  Likewise with the notion that James Harrison didn't do nuthin' and all the Bengals are criminals.  As Simon & Garfunkel once crooned "A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest."

EDIT - And if your next cliched move is to declare that I need to chill out so you can declare yourself the winner of this argument because you're trying to get a rise out of me, I'm one step ahead of ya!! HA! Ok, I should get back to real work now.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-21-2018, 10:37 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: My point exactly. 

Absolutely nothing changed. From the time he was drafted until the time he left, it was MB doing business as usual. Did Carson really think some hot-shot college kid would come around and change an ego-driven owner into changing what he's been doing for a decade or more? 

I think it's apparent that he did believe that...and ultimately I think he did help achieve that...although it took him asking for a trade to make a dent. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-21-2018, 10:29 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: So he didn't know anything about how the Bengals operated being there that long? Even if he wasn't a Bengals historian, it wasn't that hard to figure out. At least I hope.

New coach. New attitude at the time. The Bengals had been horrible before Marv and drafting Carson. There was a big shift at the time. First three years was a trend upward. It was those last 5 that were turds (other than '09).