Defensive Line

[Shake n Blake]

(08-30-2015, 10:15 PM)Whatever Wrote: I think they will keep Thompson over Sims, honestly.  They have a 3rd round pick invested in him, and both have been dinged up in camp.  Sims is in a one year, veteran minimum deal after drawing no interest from other teams this offseason, and could easily be a street FA pickup during the season for us.

1. Pat Sims was signed on March 26th so it's not like he sat around long.

2. Pat expressed a clear interest in returning and it's quite possible that he didn't even WANT to talk with other teams.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/03/26/bengals-bring-back-pat-sims/70496772/

3. Pat Sims (also a 3rd round pick) is a better player than Brandon Thompson. I really think you're underestimating Sims. He'd be on a roster if he weren't here. I have very little doubt about that. PFF graded him as the 2nd best defensive player on the Raiders when he was starting for them.

[J24]

(08-30-2015, 03:30 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Not sure I'd have any faith in either of them against a road grading RT on a running down.

But you have faith in Hunt? Just curious what has he done to make you believe in him?

[TGISunday]

If only we had a chance to improve NT with the draft this year in the 1st round...

[fredtoast]

(08-31-2015, 01:01 AM)TGISunday Wrote: If only we had a chance to improve NT with the draft this year in the 1st round...

Way to early for any sort of "I told you so" comments.

[*michaelsean*]

(08-30-2015, 12:52 PM)ShowMeUrTDs Wrote: The sad thing is if they were legitimately trying to improve the team....Peko's spot would be up for grabs. The minute he is on the bench the pressure instantly improves.

That would free up another spot for a talented up and comer!!

I know it's not a lot to go on, but when Peko was injured against the Bucs last year, the defense got immediately better that game.  Maybe it was fresh legs, I don't know, but it was glaringly obvious.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-30-2015, 10:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 1. Pat Sims was signed on March 26th so it's not like he sat around long.

2. Pat expressed a clear interest in returning and it's quite possible that he didn't even WANT to talk with other teams.

http://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/nfl/bengals/2015/03/26/bengals-bring-back-pat-sims/70496772/

3. Pat Sims (also a 3rd round pick) is a better player than Brandon Thompson. I really think you're underestimating Sims. He'd be on a roster if he weren't here. I have very little doubt about that. PFF graded him as the 2nd best defensive player on the Raiders when he was starting for them.

Right.....not to mention the numbers don't lie.....we're flat better against the run when he's in there.  We discussed that at length on the mothership.....

[3wt]

(08-30-2015, 03:30 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Not sure I'd have any faith in either of them against a road grading RT on a running down.

Agreed.    Everyone talks about how much growth Clark has shown, but he shows less explosion than Hunt and all he's done is gain weight.  I am not impressed.

Gilberry is a nice penetrator, but he can't set the edge effectively or shed one blocker well enough to be effective against the run.  And he runs out of steam pretty fast.

They'll keep him, but I like both the young guys better.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(08-30-2015, 12:11 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: Everyone's talking about our Defensive Line, and how it is probably the most stacked position on the team.  This despite getting rid of a starter (Geathers) from last year.

Just looking at the numbers, there are 12 players with a legitimate claim for a spot:

DE: Dunlap, Johnson, Gilberry, Clarke, Hunt,
NT: Peko, Thompson, Sims
UT: Atkins, Hardison, Still, Williams

We usually keep 9, but even if they keep 10 there's going to be at least one big name player out on the street.

We can almost certainly assume that last year's starters, plus Johnson, are safe (Dunlap, Johnson, Gilberry, Peko, Atkins).  That leaves 4 or 5 spots for Thompson (3rd rounder), Still (2nd), Sims (3rd), Hardison (4th), Hunt (2nd), Clarke (3rd), Williams (UFA).  So this is the year we're giving up on at least one 2nd or 3rd rounder from recent times.

Here are your options:

Brandon Thompson - has played all three seasons but struggles to make his mark in games.  Has done nothing this pre-season due to injuries.
Devon Still - well known off the field, has yet to do much of anything on the field.  Was cut this time last season and ended up on the practice squad until injuries opened up a spot on the 53.  Has been anonymous during pre-season.
Pat Sims - he's big and can back up Peko at NT or work alongside him on rushing downs. We were better against the run when he last played for us.  Has done nothing this pre-season due to injuries.
Marcus Hardison - the rookie has shown promise during pre-season.  It's unlikely we cut a 4th rounder so early as he'll be picked up by somebody else.
Margus Hunt - flashed last pre-season but has yet to get it together during the regular season.  Has had lots of injuries.  A bit of an expert at looking like he might get to the QB, but being too late for the sack.
Will Clarke - last year's third rounder, he's looked decent.  Could back up MJ at RE.
DeShawn Williams - the wildcard UFA from Clemson.  He's built like Geno and has been getting a lot of praise for his pressure and work-rate both in practice and during pre-season games.  One of the few DTs we have that can rush the passer.

If it was my choice, I'd go for 9 (+ Chris Carter in the LBs):

Dunlap, Peko, Atkins, Johnson
Gilberry, Hardison, Sims, Clarke,
Thompson

Still and Hunt don't make it and Williams misses out in the hope we can squeeze him to the PS.

What say you?

Sims played significantly in the first preseason game and was very good.

Made a big stop on the Giants RB. Big hit. He just didn't play the last two games.

That is the only reason i think Peko is still here, he stays healthy. Sims needs to and then Peko is releasable.

[XenoMorph]

(08-30-2015, 12:11 PM)bengal kitten uk Wrote: Everyone's talking about our Defensive Line, and how it is probably the most stacked position on the team. This despite getting rid of a starter (Geathers) from last year.

Just looking at the numbers, there are 12 players with a legitimate claim for a spot:

DE: Dunlap, Johnson, Gilberry, Clarke, Hunt,
NT: Peko, Thompson, Sims
UT: Atkins, Hardison, Still, Williams

We usually keep 9, but even if they keep 10 there's going to be at least one big name player out on the street.

We can almost certainly assume that last year's starters, plus Johnson, are safe (Dunlap, Johnson, Gilberry, Peko, Atkins). That leaves 4 or 5 spots for Thompson (3rd rounder), Still (2nd), Sims (3rd), Hardison (4th), Hunt (2nd), Clarke (3rd), Williams (UFA). So this is the year we're giving up on at least one 2nd or 3rd rounder from recent times.

Here are your options:

Brandon Thompson - has played all three seasons but struggles to make his mark in games. Has done nothing this pre-season due to injuries.
Devon Still - well known off the field, has yet to do much of anything on the field. Was cut this time last season and ended up on the practice squad until injuries opened up a spot on the 53. Has been anonymous during pre-season.
Pat Sims - he's big and can back up Peko at NT or work alongside him on rushing downs. We were better against the run when he last played for us. Has done nothing this pre-season due to injuries.
Marcus Hardison - the rookie has shown promise during pre-season. It's unlikely we cut a 4th rounder so early as he'll be picked up by somebody else.
Margus Hunt - flashed last pre-season but has yet to get it together during the regular season. Has had lots of injuries. A bit of an expert at looking like he might get to the QB, but being too late for the sack.
Will Clarke - last year's third rounder, he's looked decent. Could back up MJ at RE.
DeShawn Williams - the wildcard UFA from Clemson. He's built like Geno and has been getting a lot of praise for his pressure and work-rate both in practice and during pre-season games. One of the few DTs we have that can rush the passer.

If it was my choice, I'd go for 9 (+ Chris Carter in the LBs):

Dunlap, Peko, Atkins, Johnson
Gilberry, Hardison, Sims, Clarke,
Thompson

Still and Hunt don't make it and Williams misses out in the hope we can squeeze him to the PS.

What say you?

i might keep hunt over thompson. which would suck to get rid of our back to back 2nd and 3rd round pick DTs from a few years ago.. but neither have truely panned out. And i go with an extra DE over DT as several of the DEs can slide inside. to play DT for us.

[XenoMorph]

(08-30-2015, 06:26 PM)EatonFan Wrote: I think we'll go with 5 WRs with Kumerow on the PS to give an extra to the D-Line.

possible but they might keep a 5th running back for special teams as well with burkhead playing some WR... they might go 5 and 5 there....

[jfkbengals]

(08-30-2015, 11:12 PM)J24 Wrote: But you have faith in Hunt? Just curious what has he done to make you believe in him?

Faith that he wouldn't get bulldozed, yes.  Not saying he will make a play, just that he won't be steamrolled.  Clarke and Gilberry are more suited for the other side of the formation.

[3wt]

(08-31-2015, 12:12 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right.....not to mention the numbers don't lie.....we're flat better against the run when he's in there.  We discussed that at length on the mothership.....

And I agree with you.  But the coaching staff does not really line up with the mothership's conclusions.  Sims is getting older and has a long history of injuries.  So does Thompson, but he's younger.  And Hobson believes that Thompson has already made the team.

We'll see.   I'm a big proponent of Sims.  And since both Thompson and Sims have a lot of injuries it makes sense to keep both.

[jfkbengals]

(08-31-2015, 12:12 PM)Wyche Wrote: Right.....not to mention the numbers don't lie.....we're flat better against the run when he's in there.  We discussed that at length on the mothership.....

Allow me to summarize it (never throw away your research):

Sims inactive 5-15 record (.250 W%), opponents YPG 135.9, opponents YPC 4.49

Sims active 32-27-1 record (.542 W%), opponents YPG 100.2, opponents YPC 3.87

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(08-31-2015, 10:53 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Allow me to summarize it (never throw away your research):

Sims inactive 5-15 record (.250 W%), opponents YPG 135.9, opponents YPC 4.49

Sims active 32-27-1 record (.542 W%), opponents YPG 100.2, opponents YPC 3.87

Nice......

[corpjet]

I would love to pick up Phil Taylor who the Browns just cut, I know he has injury problems but man is he a workload up the middle if could ever stay healthy!

[*SHRacerX*]

(08-30-2015, 03:30 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Not sure I'd have any faith in either of them against a road grading RT on a running down.

Exactly.  People think DEs are interchangeable.  They're not.  Hunt is the best option behind Dunlap and that is why he makes the team. 

[fredtoast]

(09-02-2015, 08:24 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Exactly.  People think DEs are interchangeable.  They're not.  Hunt is the best option behind Dunlap and that is why he makes the team. 

MJ can play both ends.

It is better to not have him flip flopping throughout the game, but if it comes down to keeping a better player at the bottom of the D-line roster he could do it.

[fredtoast]

I have liked Sims since college. I am a big SEC fan and saw him play a good bit. I had him as our second round pick in my mock draft. I was thrilled when we got him in the third. However he never blossomed into the player I had hoped for. I am glad we have him back, but he is not the beast some of you think. And he is only one year younger than Peko.

[Okeana]

Pat sims is a better version of Brandon Thompson.

Hunt is probably either going to practice squad or given papers.

[XenoMorph]

(09-02-2015, 11:12 AM)fredtoast Wrote: MJ can play both ends.

It is better to not have him flip flopping throughout the game, but if it comes down to keeping a better player at the bottom of the D-line roster he could do it.

SO MJ starts opposite of Dunlap then spells dunlap? when does MJ get a rest?