Atkins and Dunlap Extensions

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

Perhaps a lot of these big extensions for Atkins/Dunlap/Mack/Donald and the like are coming at a rather terrible time.

With the rules changing and all of that, they are making it awfully hard to play defense in the NFL, and even the pass rushers are being punished by this BS body weight rule, which I am certain I have seen Atkins come in soft on a QB at least once because he knew he couldn't hit him hard, and it ended up not being a sack because he didn't get him down.

Maybe now is the time to invest heavy in OL and skill players on the offense.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Last year the leader in passing YPG in the NFL was Tom Brady with 286.

Here in 2018 so far there are 13 QBs who have more than 286 passing YPG.

Think about that. 13 QBs have thrown for more than the leader of last year. Heck, there are 7 with at least 300 YPG, 4 with at least 350 YPG, and 1 with at least 400 YPG.

If the current pace holds, there will be....
-6 QBs who throw for 5,000 yards.
-3 QBs who throw for at least 50 TDs
-7 QBs who throw for at least 40 TDs
-15 QBs who throw for at least 30 TDs.

Those numbers, respectively, last year were 0, 0, 0, and 3.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe as we're watching Mike Zimmer suddenly no longer able to coach a successful defense, it might be the end of successful defenses and the new plan should be just to make a team that can outscore the other team.

I love me some Geno Atkins, but a part of me can't help but wonder if the Bengals made a move that won't end up paying off when all is said and done because it was done in a philosophy that might be outdated now.

Just imagine what another offseason or two will bring rules-wise to make this absurd situation even more absurd.

[thillan]

(09-28-2018, 04:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Perhaps a lot of these big extensions for Atkins/Dunlap/Mack/Donald and the like are coming at a rather terrible time.

With the rules changing and all of that, they are making it awfully hard to play defense in the NFL, and even the pass rushers are being punished by this BS body weight rule, which I am certain I have seen Atkins come in soft on a QB at least once because he knew he couldn't hit him hard, and it ended up not being a sack because he didn't get him down.

Maybe now is the time to invest heavy in OL and skill players on the offense.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Last year the leader in passing YPG in the NFL was Tom Brady with 286.

Here in 2018 so far there are 13 QBs who have more than 286 passing YPG.

Think about that. 13 QBs have thrown for more than the leader of last year. Heck, there are 7 with at least 300 YPG, 4 with at least 350 YPG, and 1 with at least 400 YPG.

If the current pace holds, there will be....
-6 QBs who throw for 5,000 yards.
-3 QBs who throw for at least 50 TDs
-7 QBs who throw for at least 40 TDs
-15 QBs who throw for at least 30 TDs.

Those numbers, respectively, last year were 0, 0, 0, and 3.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe as we're watching Mike Zimmer suddenly no longer able to coach a successful defense, it might be the end of successful defenses and the new plan should be just to make a team that can outscore the other team.

I love me some Geno Atkins, but a part of me can't help but wonder if the Bengals made a move that won't end up paying off when all is said and done because it was done in a philosophy that might be outdated now.

Just imagine what another offseason or two will bring rules-wise to make this absurd situation even more absurd.

Yep, I just posted this earlier in another thread. I think the Bengals are falling behind the times. 

The best defense now is to just have the more high-powered offense. The Chiefs and the Rams have the chance to absolutely annihilate the rest of the league with offense. The Vikings and Rams are BOTH great defenses, and really the only thing you could do last night is hope some throws were missed. The Chiefs are just as scary to watch.

Atlanta is kinda similar, but it doesn't feel quite as dangerous. But they are set up in a way to dominate.

We have some pieces to do this I think (an accurate QB, a star receiver, versatile RB), but we are lacking in an offensive line that can let big plays develop consistently. I also don't think we are that innovative.

Oh well.. the other side of the coin is maybe the best way to beat these offenses is to play slow and keep them off the field. Time will tell.

[thillan]

Sorry to double post, but I think the Bengals would be wise to grab an up and coming OC as a Head Coach next. You HAVE to be innovative, because guys like Sean McVay, Andy Reid, and Kyle Shanahan are going to run circles around you.


I know you risk just "copying others" because not everyone is McVay, but you'd at least be taking a step towards staying with the modern NFL.

[CJD]

Counter argument:
Now that playing Oline and offense in general is considerably easier due to these penalties, and defensive players are being penalized more and more for standard defensive plays...you should spend more on defense.

Think about it.

If it is getting easier to protect your QB, why would you then pay those players more?
If it is getting harder to play defense, why would you decide to pay your good defenders less?

If defense is harder to play now, then I'd make sure my defense is stacked with amazing players because I want as many opportunities to sack the QB as possible, since at least 1 will be called back due to penalties each game.

Meanwhile, I can afford to have worse offensive linemen and skill position players because every 3rd or 4th sack my RT gives up will be nonsensically called back anyway, making his poor play less of a game breaker.

Similarly, if my QB has more time, doesn't have to fear big hits as much and can stand in the pocket, I don't need as many elite receivers who can get open, as any player can get open if given 5 to 10 seconds per play.

Just a thought.

[*rfaulk34*]

(09-28-2018, 04:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Perhaps a lot of these big extensions for Atkins/Dunlap/Mack/Donald and the like are coming at a rather terrible time.

With the rules changing and all of that, they are making it awfully hard to play defense in the NFL, and even the pass rushers are being punished by this BS body weight rule, which I am certain I have seen Atkins come in soft on a QB at least once because he knew he couldn't hit him hard, and it ended up not being a sack because he didn't get him down.

Maybe now is the time to invest heavy in OL and skill players on the offense.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Last year the leader in passing YPG in the NFL was Tom Brady with 286.

Here in 2018 so far there are 13 QBs who have more than 286 passing YPG.

Think about that. 13 QBs have thrown for more than the leader of last year. Heck, there are 7 with at least 300 YPG, 4 with at least 350 YPG, and 1 with at least 400 YPG.

If the current pace holds, there will be....
-6 QBs who throw for 5,000 yards.
-3 QBs who throw for at least 50 TDs
-7 QBs who throw for at least 40 TDs
-15 QBs who throw for at least 30 TDs.

Those numbers, respectively, last year were 0, 0, 0, and 3.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe as we're watching Mike Zimmer suddenly no longer able to coach a successful defense, it might be the end of successful defenses and the new plan should be just to make a team that can outscore the other team.

I love me some Geno Atkins, but a part of me can't help but wonder if the Bengals made a move that won't end up paying off when all is said and done because it was done in a philosophy that might be outdated now.

Just imagine what another offseason or two will bring rules-wise to make this absurd situation even more absurd.

Hot starts like that don't last. It will all even out in the end. 

[J24]

People have been saying this for years and Everytime it turns out to be wrong. Come playoff time defense will matter because it always has. Even if the numbers continue to spike and it becomes an all out offense game; every big play on defense will have more value to it because there less of them.

[SunsetBengal]

(09-28-2018, 05:06 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Counter argument:
Now that playing Oline and offense in general is considerably easier due to these penalties, and defensive players are being penalized more and more for standard defensive plays...you should spend more on defense.

Think about it.

If it is getting easier to protect your QB, why would you then pay those players more?
If it is getting harder to play defense, why would you decide to pay your good defenders less?

If defense is harder to play now, then I'd make sure my defense is stacked with amazing players because I want as many opportunities to sack the QB as possible, since at least 1 will be called back due to penalties each game.

Meanwhile, I can afford to have worse offensive linemen and skill position players because every 3rd or 4th sack my RT gives up will be nonsensically called back anyway, making his poor play less of a game breaker.

Similarly, if my QB has more time, doesn't have to fear big hits as much and can stand in the pocket, I don't need as many elite receivers who can get open, as any player can get open if given 5 to 10 seconds per play.

Just a thought.

That certainly is an interesting take on the situation.  Who would have ever dreamed that Mike Brown would try to be cutting edge on Cap Management Strategy?  He's a genius who's been anticipating this transition in the league for years.  I can't wait for those Lombardi Trophys to start stacking up, 'ole Mike will have to splurge for a new hall to showcase them.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

The Atkins and Dunlap Extensions were great moves, don't kid yourself.

The problem with this thought is that great O-lineman are getting harder to come by and in the end skill players don't
win the Superbowl, it is the big plays at the right time like Barnett's strip sack on Brady last year. I think it is a little of
both but don't act like a great Defense won't matter come Playoff time. It will.

And i sure want these two guys on my Defense.

[t3r3e3]

(09-28-2018, 04:57 PM)thillan Wrote: Yep, I just posted this earlier in another thread. I think the Bengals are falling behind the times. 

The best defense now is to just have the more high-powered offense. The Chiefs and the Rams have the chance to absolutely annihilate the rest of the league with offense. The Vikings and Rams are BOTH great defenses, and really the only thing you could do last night is hope some throws were missed. The Chiefs are just as scary to watch.

Atlanta is kinda similar, but it doesn't feel quite as dangerous. But they are set up in a way to dominate.

We have some pieces to do this I think (an accurate QB, a star receiver, versatile RB), but we are lacking in an offensive line that can let big plays develop consistently. I also don't think we are that innovative.

Oh well.. the other side of the coin is maybe the best way to beat these offenses is to play slow and keep them off the field. Time will tell.

Conversely, the Bears are winning with exceptional defense propping up Trubisky's putrid play.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-28-2018, 07:44 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Conversely, the Bears are winning with exceptional defense propping up Trubisky's putrid play.

Yes, and a big reason the Rams won last night was Donald getting to Cousins.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(09-28-2018, 07:55 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, and a big reason the Rams won last night was Donald getting to Cousins.

A partial reason, but I wouldn't argue a big reason. Guy has 12 tackles (only 6 of which are solo), 2.0 sacks, and no other stats after 4 games.

I would say the biggest reason they won (and are 4-0) is that they've scored 33, 34, 35, and 38 points in their games this year. If you score 35 points per game, you're going to win even if you don't have Aaron Donald.

I would say Goff having a *perfect* passer rating is a much bigger reason the Rams won last night.

[Bilbo Saggins]

The Jags still find a way to play defense...and that's with warm weather. We'll see how the defenses start looking after they've had some time to adjust and "ride the line" between a good play and a penalty. The refs will give you some breathing room nowadays, just go back and watch what the Steelers did to the bucs offense 

[Sled21]

The rules committee came out and said the ref are throwing flags for roughing for things that did not match their intent when they wrote the rule. Expect way less flags this weekend....

[thillan]

(09-28-2018, 07:44 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Conversely, the Bears are winning with exceptional defense propping up Trubisky's putrid play.

And lost to the only potent offense they faced..

They’ve beat Seattle and Arizona. Two of the worst offenses in the league..

[thillan]

Next Sunday the Chiefs and Jags will play each other. The result will give some indications about the leagues direction IMO

[CornerBlitz]

(09-28-2018, 05:03 PM)thillan Wrote: Sorry to double post, but I think the Bengals would be wise to grab an up and coming OC as a Head Coach next. You HAVE to be innovative, because guys like Sean McVay, Andy Reid, and Kyle Shanahan are going to run circles around you.


I know you risk just "copying others" because not everyone is McVay, but you'd at least be taking a step towards staying with the modern NFL.

I think this pretty much sums it up for me. You can see the clear difference between an offensive minded coach that knows what he is doing and the rest of the league, especially if you do not have a top 10 QB.  

Marvin is a mediocre coach and we do not have an elite QB so it would go a long way to acquire an offensive genius.  With that said I don't mind what Lazor has done so far, i just need to see it the rest of the year. 

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-28-2018, 08:57 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I think this pretty much sums it up for me. You can see the clear difference between an offensive minded coach that knows what he is doing and the rest of the league, especially if you do not have a top 10 QB.  

Marvin is a mediocre coach and we do not have an elite QB so it would go a long way to acquire an offensive genius.  With that said I don't mind what Lazor has done so far, i just need to see it the rest of the year. 

Lets hope Lazor keeps improving and has more tricks up his sleeve, especially in the 2nd half.

As for Geno and Carlos, the season is early it'll get better and we'll be glad we have them come November. The fireworks show of the first 6 weeks will come to an end, always does.

[J24]

(09-28-2018, 08:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: A partial reason, but I wouldn't argue a big reason. Guy has 12 tackles (only 6 of which are solo), 2.0 sacks, and no other stats after 4 games.

I would say the biggest reason they won (and are 4-0) is that they've scored 33, 34, 35, and 38 points in their games this year. If you score 35 points per game, you're going to win even if you don't have Aaron Donald.

I would say Goff having a *perfect* passer rating is a much bigger reason the Rams won last night.

They also played good defense during that stretch as well only giving up 17 points per a game.

[DaytonBengal]

(09-28-2018, 04:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Perhaps a lot of these big extensions for Atkins/Dunlap/Mack/Donald and the like are coming at a rather terrible time.

With the rules changing and all of that, they are making it awfully hard to play defense in the NFL, and even the pass rushers are being punished by this BS body weight rule, which I am certain I have seen Atkins come in soft on a QB at least once because he knew he couldn't hit him hard, and it ended up not being a sack because he didn't get him down.

Maybe now is the time to invest heavy in OL and skill players on the offense.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Last year the leader in passing YPG in the NFL was Tom Brady with 286.

Here in 2018 so far there are 13 QBs who have more than 286 passing YPG.

Think about that. 13 QBs have thrown for more than the leader of last year. Heck, there are 7 with at least 300 YPG, 4 with at least 350 YPG, and 1 with at least 400 YPG.

If the current pace holds, there will be....
-6 QBs who throw for 5,000 yards.
-3 QBs who throw for at least 50 TDs
-7 QBs who throw for at least 40 TDs
-15 QBs who throw for at least 30 TDs.

Those numbers, respectively, last year were 0, 0, 0, and 3.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe as we're watching Mike Zimmer suddenly no longer able to coach a successful defense, it might be the end of successful defenses and the new plan should be just to make a team that can outscore the other team.

I love me some Geno Atkins, but a part of me can't help but wonder if the Bengals made a move that won't end up paying off when all is said and done because it was done in a philosophy that might be outdated now.

Just imagine what another offseason or two will bring rules-wise to make this absurd situation even more absurd.

It hasn’t gotten cold yet, the passing numbers will come down

You still need to pressure and sack the qb to win. A great dline makes a mediocre secondary good.

[Beaker]

(09-28-2018, 04:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Perhaps a lot of these big extensions for Atkins/Dunlap/Mack/Donald and the like are coming at a rather terrible time.

With the rules changing and all of that, they are making it awfully hard to play defense in the NFL, and even the pass rushers are being punished by this BS body weight rule, which I am certain I have seen Atkins come in soft on a QB at least once because he knew he couldn't hit him hard, and it ended up not being a sack because he didn't get him down.

Maybe now is the time to invest heavy in OL and skill players on the offense.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Last year the leader in passing YPG in the NFL was Tom Brady with 286.

Here in 2018 so far there are 13 QBs who have more than 286 passing YPG.

Think about that. 13 QBs have thrown for more than the leader of last year. Heck, there are 7 with at least 300 YPG, 4 with at least 350 YPG, and 1 with at least 400 YPG.

If the current pace holds, there will be....
-6 QBs who throw for 5,000 yards.
-3 QBs who throw for at least 50 TDs
-7 QBs who throw for at least 40 TDs
-15 QBs who throw for at least 30 TDs.

Those numbers, respectively, last year were 0, 0, 0, and 3.
- - - - - - - - - - -

Maybe as we're watching Mike Zimmer suddenly no longer able to coach a successful defense, it might be the end of successful defenses and the new plan should be just to make a team that can outscore the other team.

I love me some Geno Atkins, but a part of me can't help but wonder if the Bengals made a move that won't end up paying off when all is said and done because it was done in a philosophy that might be outdated now.

Just imagine what another offseason or two will bring rules-wise to make this absurd situation even more absurd.

If we already have 13 QBs doing better than last year, they are doing so with average to bad O lines already in place. Look what CAR did to the Bengals with a banged up O line.

(09-28-2018, 04:57 PM)thillan Wrote: The best defense now is to just have the more high-powered offense. 

That was the Bengals in to 80s. Could outscore most teams, but couldn't stop anyone either.

(09-28-2018, 05:03 PM)thillan Wrote: Sorry to double post, but I think the Bengals would be wise to grab an up and coming OC as a Head Coach next. You HAVE to be innovative, because guys like Sean McVay, Andy Reid, and Kyle Shanahan are going to run circles around you.

Been down that road before too....Sam Wyche was the most innovative coach in the NFL.