Redmond - Weakest link on the line

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 11:49 AM)Au165 Wrote: Sure, but again.....10th. O lines are bad everywhere it's just the nature of the beast right now. 

I keep hearing this argument that Olines are bad everywhere so then why does our (supposedly) all star Dline struggle to get any pressure at all on 19 plays out of 20 ?

Redmond isn't good and he needs replaced now.

[Au165]

(10-24-2018, 12:14 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I keep hearing this argument that Olines are bad everywhere so then why does our (supposedly) all star Dline struggle to get any pressure at all on 19 plays out of 20 ?

Redmond isn't good and he needs replaced now.

They get pressure, they don't get sacks there is a difference. Carl Lawson has the 13th most pressures in the league, but they haven't equated to sacks. Geno is among the league leader is pressures as well. Often times people confuse pressure with sacks which isn't true.

Didn't say Redmond wasn't good but the narrative our O line is worst than most in pass protection as a whole isn't necessarily true either.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 12:17 PM)Au165 Wrote: They get pressure, they don't get sacks there is a difference. Carl Lawson has the 13th most pressures in the league, but they haven't equated to sacks. Geno is among the league leader is pressures as well. Often times people confuse pressure with sacks which isn't true.

Didn't say Redmond wasn't good but the narrative our O line is worst than most in pass protection as a whole isn't necessarily true either.

I don't confuse sacks with pressure at all. Or stats with reality. And the fact is our Dline has been a non factor in determining the out come of a boat load of plays.

We've gotten game chancing plays out of our Dline at a much lower rate than they are capable of.

[Au165]

(10-24-2018, 12:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I don't confuse sacks with pressure at all. Or stats with reality. And the fact is our Dline has been a non factor in determining the out come of a boat load of plays.

We've gotten game chancing plays out of our Dline at a much lower rate than they are capable of.

They are actually getting a lot of pressure relative to most teams, they aren't equating into sacks. The confusing stat with reality comment is actually your problem, you take your perception as reality...stats are the reality. Your casual observation says we don't get pressure the stats however paint a completely different story.

[*Synric*]

(10-24-2018, 11:49 AM)Au165 Wrote: Sure, but again.....10th. O lines are bad everywhere it's just the nature of the beast right now. 

And I bet teams like the Bills, Texans, and Cowboys will be very low on that's list because the QB Time to Throw for all those teams are over 3 seconds. If a QB holds the ball it gives defensive lines more time to rush and get pressures.

The fact that the Bengals Time to Throw is at 2.55 and Redmond is giving up more pressure than any guard in the league (and I think History) is staggering.

The Bengals again have one of the worst offensive lines in football.

[Au165]

(10-24-2018, 12:45 PM)Synric Wrote: And I bet teams like the Bills, Texans, and Cowboys will be very low on that's list because the QB Time to Throw for all those teams are over 3 seconds. If a QB holds the ball it gives defensive lines more time to rush and get pressures.

The fact that the Bengals Time to Throw is at 2.55 and Redmond is giving up more pressure than any guard in the league (and I think History) is staggering.

The Bengals again have one of the worst offensive lines in football.

There are plenty of players within .01 second of Daltons Time to throw who have given up far more pressures. It works in unison for sure, but keep in mind Tim to Throw only accounts for passes they got off which makes it difficult when they eat it and take the sack to determine what that had to do with in terms of time. 

I don't disagree they aren't good, but I think people look at it in a bubble disregarding the leagues issues as a whole. I think they are closer to average than they are the worst, but it's all relative to the current state.

[*Synric*]

(10-24-2018, 12:59 PM)Au165 Wrote: There are plenty of players within .01 second of Daltons Time to throw who have given up far more pressures. It works in unison for sure, but keep in mind Tim to Throw only accounts for passes they got off which makes it difficult when they eat it and take the sack to determine what that had to do with in terms of time. 

I don't disagree they aren't good, but I think people look at it in a bubble disregarding the leagues issues as a whole. I think they are closer to average than they are the worst, but it's all relative to the current state.

We've seen a lot of these numbers spike over the last three weeks. 

Teams have figured out they can play cover 2 man against the Bengals because they can control the line of scrimmage. They can stop the run with 6 to 6.5 players in the box and force Andy to throw quickly into tight coverage.

[Au165]

(10-24-2018, 01:05 PM)Synric Wrote: We've seen a lot of these numbers spike over the last three weeks. 

Teams have figured out they can play cover 2 man against the Bengals because they can control the line of scrimmage. They can stop the run with 6 to 6.5 players in the box and force Andy to throw quickly into tight coverage.

I don't disagree the run blocking issue is exposing other things, but I continue to point out that pass protection issues aren't unique here and frankly we aren't as bad here as we believe when observing. It all works together to create a bigger issue. I think the O line not being  particularly good at either means that we can't use one to setup the other and provide relief to their deficiencies.

The offense has a lot of issues, I'd even include the issue of no one besides AJ is winning one on ones when they are seeing man coverage which is creating other issues. With Ross sidelined again, I'd reach out to Tampa to see about D Jax to give us the vertical threat we have been wanting Ross to be as he would be a one year rental. 

[NATI BENGALS]

(10-24-2018, 12:09 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Our worst rated OL is still rated higher than 4 of 5 starting OL from last year.  So, while Redmond's performance has been nothing to write home about, the overall performance of the OL is better than last year.

Some poops stink less than others. Doesnt mean i keep them around

[SunsetBengal]

(10-24-2018, 01:20 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Some poops stink less than others. Doesnt mean i keep them around

Alright, fair enough.  So, what superstar are you bringing up from the bench to sub in for him?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-24-2018, 01:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Alright, fair enough.  So, what superstar are you bringing up from the bench to sub in for him?

Said in the thread Sunset, a healthy Billy Price could be a superstar RG for us.

Obviously Westerman is not going to get a shot at RG. I think this is the only way to improve this O-line at this point
in the season and of course for Pollack to keep coaching these guys into a consistent unit. Synric makes a great point
about how fast Dalton gets the ball out, faster than about anyone and Redmond STILL gives up this many pressures!

[Au165]

I think Chance Warmack from Philly could be had for a 6th or 7th rounder.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-23-2018, 11:31 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Dont wait for Price to come back to make a change. Westerman should be starting at RG. Hopkins is backup quality.  We need Price at C. Im not convinced Hart is that much better than Fisher. Why cant we give him some snaps at RT

I mean, i would be all for this but the coaches don't seem to be for whatever reason with Westerman.

He just never gets a shot at RG.

Also, what is Price's timeline? Heard from his own mouth he would be back for the Steelers game and he is
still out a game later? This has me concerned now if he doesn't make it back this week.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-24-2018, 01:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I think Chance Warmack from Philly could be had for a 6th or 7th rounder.

All for it. :andy:

[Whodey614]

The O-Line was the least of everyone's worries when the Bengals were dropping 30 every game. Like I keep saying, it's far from perfect but much improved from last year. It's impossible to rebuild an o-line into elite status in one year. Guys like Redmond and Hart were struggling but we were still producing due to Dalton getting the ball out quickly and guys being open.

The problem has been that Lazor seems to have lost his mojo ever since Eifert and Gio went out. I get that Eifert is a major weapon, but it's not like CJ or Kroft when healthy are scrubs. When Ross has been out there, he was barely being used or targeted outside out of the Carolina debacle. Lazor can't utilize Ross like KC does with Tyreek Hill. The running game stagnated again (has some to do with abandoning the run at the wrong times like against Pitt) and Mixon has not been used in the passing game as much as we expected. We're seeing flashes of the 2016 & 17 Bengals offense again and that should not be the case honestly. Especially since the OL is slightly improved and we have Tyler Boyd instead of Lafell and Mixon instead of Jeremy Hill. There are plenty of teams that have average WRs and OLs and they could still put up at least 24 points on the board against KC's defense. Lazor needs to make changes because nothing has not been working since the Atlanta game.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 12:30 PM)Au165 Wrote: They are actually getting a lot of pressure relative to most teams, they aren't equating into sacks. The confusing stat with reality comment is actually your problem, you take your perception as reality...stats are the reality. Your casual observation says we don't get pressure the stats however paint a completely different story.

Stats never tell the whole story nor will they ever tell the whole story. They're like reading the middle 10 chapters in a 20 chapter book.

For example we're down by 21 late in a game and get 2 pressures, see what I mean ?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(10-24-2018, 02:00 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: The O-Line was the least of everyone's worries when the Bengals were dropping 30 every game. Like I keep saying, it's far from perfect but much improved from last year. It's impossible to rebuild an o-line into elite status in one year. Guys like Redmond and Hart were struggling but we were still producing due to Dalton getting the ball out quickly and guys being open.

The problem has been that Lazor seems to have lost his mojo ever since Eifert and Gio went out. I get that Eifert is a major weapon, but it's not like CJ or Kroft when healthy are scrubs. When Ross has been out there, he was barely being used or targeted outside out of the Carolina debacle. Lazor can't utilize Ross like KC does with Tyreek Hill. The running game stagnated again (has some to do with abandoning the run at the wrong times like against Pitt) and Mixon has not been used in the passing game as much as we expected. We're seeing flashes of the 2016 & 17 Bengals offense again and that should not be the case honestly. Especially since the OL is slightly improved and we have Tyler Boyd instead of Lafell and Mixon instead of Jeremy Hill. There are plenty of teams that have average WRs and OLs and they could still put up at least 24 points on the board against KC's defense. Lazor needs to make changes because nothing has not been working since the Atlanta game.

First off.....lots of good stuff in your post, and I agree with it, but I wanted to address what I bolded in detail.

I found this quote quite interesting:

"Forget that the Bengals scored 117 points in the first 14 quarters of the season with Eifert and 67 in the 14 quarters without him. It is also how Lazor shaped his offense around multiple tight-end sets.

Often double tights and sometimes triple tights, Lazor used Eifert, Uzomah and Tyler Kroft at least 32 percent of the snaps and none more than 65 percent in the first three games. In the last three games without Eifert, Uzomah has played at least 92 percent of the snaps because Kroft broke a bone in his foot. Without Kroft, in the last two games combined new No. 3 tight end Matt Lengel has played six snaps and Mason Schreck played nine before he suffered what appears to be a season-ending knee injury."

Lazor has some adjusting to do.....hell we don't even HAVE 3 TEs anymore in reality.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

So Redmond alone, gave up 6 pressures, and is about to break a NFL record. Funny.....I heard the QB wasn't pressured against KC.

[*bengalfan74*]

(10-24-2018, 02:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: First off.....lots of good stuff in your post, and I agree with it, but I wanted to address what I bolded in detail.

I found this quote quite interesting:

"Forget that the Bengals scored 117 points in the first 14 quarters of the season with Eifert and 67 in the 14 quarters without him. It is also how Lazor shaped his offense around multiple tight-end sets.

Often double tights and sometimes triple tights, Lazor used Eifert, Uzomah and Tyler Kroft at least 32 percent of the snaps and none more than 65 percent in the first three games. In the last three games without Eifert, Uzomah has played at least 92 percent of the snaps because Kroft broke a bone in his foot. Without Kroft, in the last two games combined new No. 3 tight end Matt Lengel has played six snaps and Mason Schreck played nine before he suffered what appears to be a season-ending knee injury."

Lazor has some adjusting to do.....hell we don't even HAVE 3 TEs anymore in reality.

No doubt,

Lazor has got to rewrite the playbook with what we have and find ways to make it work. I think this is often a trap coaches fall into. They are stubborn changing their plan, "it was a good plan I made it up" and they often don't want to adapt it. At least not quickly enough.

This is where the hoodie and whomever he has under him are wizards. They rewrite the book every week.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(10-24-2018, 02:00 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: The O-Line was the least of everyone's worries when the Bengals were dropping 30 every game. Like I keep saying, it's far from perfect but much improved from last year. It's impossible to rebuild an o-line into elite status in one year. Guys like Redmond and Hart were struggling but we were still producing due to Dalton getting the ball out quickly and guys being open.

The problem has been that Lazor seems to have lost his mojo ever since Eifert and Gio went out. I get that Eifert is a major weapon, but it's not like CJ or Kroft when healthy are scrubs. When Ross has been out there, he was barely being used or targeted outside out of the Carolina debacle. Lazor can't utilize Ross like KC does with Tyreek Hill. The running game stagnated again (has some to do with abandoning the run at the wrong times like against Pitt) and Mixon has not been used in the passing game as much as we expected. We're seeing flashes of the 2016 & 17 Bengals offense again and that should not be the case honestly. Especially since the OL is slightly improved and we have Tyler Boyd instead of Lafell and Mixon instead of Jeremy Hill. There are plenty of teams that have average WRs and OLs and they could still put up at least 24 points on the board against KC's defense. Lazor needs to make changes because nothing has not been working since the Atlanta game.

Great post, you are correct this shouldn't be happening with Mixon and Boyd. These guys can be superstars.

Honestly, i saw Dalton try to force the ball to AJ way too much against the Chiefs while these other guys can make plays.

(10-24-2018, 02:26 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Stats never tell the whole story nor will they ever tell the whole story. They're like reading the middle 10 chapters in a 20 chapter book.

For example we're down by 21 late in a game and get 2 pressures, see what I mean ?

Yep, just like all the times we argue with Fred while he doesn't tell the whole story.

Stats are not everything. Have to be able to see things with your own eyes.

(10-24-2018, 02:28 PM)Wyche Wrote: First off.....lots of good stuff in your post, and I agree with it, but I wanted to address what I bolded in detail.

I found this quote quite interesting:

"Forget that the Bengals scored 117 points in the first 14 quarters of the season with Eifert and 67 in the 14 quarters without him. It is also how Lazor shaped his offense around multiple tight-end sets.

Often double tights and sometimes triple tights, Lazor used Eifert, Uzomah and Tyler Kroft at least 32 percent of the snaps and none more than 65 percent in the first three games. In the last three games without Eifert, Uzomah has played at least 92 percent of the snaps because Kroft broke a bone in his foot. Without Kroft, in the last two games combined new No. 3 tight end Matt Lengel has played six snaps and Mason Schreck played nine before he suffered what appears to be a season-ending knee injury."

Lazor has some adjusting to do.....hell we don't even HAVE 3 TEs anymore in reality.

We need to draft atleast one TE early next year for sure to go along with a couple LB's it seems.

And of course a Guard and Tackle.

BTW, liked what i saw from that Minshew, Guard on your Noles the Gator game Wyche.

Big, mean, looking sumbitch.