John Ross is an absolute bust

[grampahol]

The good news is Ross (and the rest of the team) will have a different HC. I almost said new HC, but until proven otherwise I'm sticking with different. 

[McC]

It's like this. We'll see what the new coach can do with him. Until then for crying out loud, give it a rest.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-01-2019, 01:21 AM)BengalChris Wrote: According to NextGen Stats John Ross is last in the NFL (2018) in catch percentage a 36%. The top player was Michael Thomas at 85%. Those stats are for WRs and TEs.

But in college John Ross had 81 receptions his last year, so perhaps he’s not being utilized properly and/or his bad hands are overblown.


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[McC]

(01-01-2019, 01:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But in college John Ross had 81 receptions his last year, so perhaps he’s not being utilized properly and/or his bad hands are overblown.


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I know both QB's could have done a MUCH better job of actually throwing the ball to him instead of maybe kinda near him.

[BengalChris]

(01-01-2019, 01:39 PM)ochocincos Wrote: But in college John Ross had 81 receptions his last year, so perhaps he’s not being utilized properly and/or his bad hands are overblown.


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I'm not sure how you can improperly utilize a WR. He either runs the routes assigned and catches the ball or he doesn't.

I'm more inclined to believe that in college he was going against weak DBs as he played in the Pac 12 during a time when defense was optional. Now he's in the NFL and the quality of the DBs is much higher. He gets knocked off his routes.

His catch stats are his catch stats. There's no real way to sugar coat them. He has a small catch radius when compared to AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. It's just what it is.

However, he is good at running along the back of the endzone and out running the defender there and catching TDs. So that alone will give him targets in the NFL. I'm hoping he can become a better route runner.

As others have said, maybe a new HC will get more out of him. I'm also hoping the new HC will get more out of this team all over, especially the D.

[*jason*]

(12-31-2018, 11:40 PM)Destro Wrote: Yes, but it is rare compared to what else he does. He was almost with Moss in 1000 yard seasons to start a career. Was always in the argument of best in the league. He had some bad plays, but was mostly great. Especially when people who consider Dalton a mediocre QB was passing to him. Ross is none of the above. How many people outside of Cincy even mention this guy? No one. Broadcasters only refer to him as someone we have high hopes for and has been a disappointment. 

Him and AJ are both WRs for the Bengals; similarities are scant beyond that.

Oh I know... I didn't like the pick myself, and Ross hasnt been impressive at all. Hopefully whichever coach us coming down the line can come up with some innovative ways to use him more effectively.

[ezekiel23]

John Ross is worse as a wide receiver,than what Cedric Ogbuehi is as an offensive lineman,and that’s saying alot.He just simply doesn’t have what it takes for nfl standards.He may have flashed in college,but he is not cut out for this league.Time to move on from him.

[McC]

I'm just gonna say it right now. When the Bengals have a new coach, a young offensive mind, next year, Ross will make fools of a lot of keyboard experts and none of them will admit to being wrong.

[fredtoast]

(01-01-2019, 03:39 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: John Ross is worse as a wide receiver,than what Cedric Ogbuehi is as an offensive lineman,and that’s saying alot.He just simply doesn’t have what it takes for nfl standards.He may have flashed in college,but he is not cut out for this league.Time to move on from him.

Ross only makes $2.8 million next year.  I agree he has not shown much, but he is worth keeping around for peanuts just in case he does bust out.  Jerome Simpson had a total of one reception through his first two seasons and he went on to have a copuple of 50+ reception 700+ yd seasons. 

We have 2 great WRs, but after that we have nothing special at all.  Josh Malone was a huge disappointment fo me.  I watched him in college.  He is a great athlete with good ball skills.  But we were paper thin at WR this year and he still didn't produce.

[Aquapod770]

(01-01-2019, 03:39 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: John Ross is worse as a wide receiver,than what Cedric Ogbuehi is as an offensive lineman,and that’s saying alot.He just simply doesn’t have what it takes for nfl standards.He may have flashed in college,but he is not cut out for this league.Time to move on from him.

Lol no he is not. Ross is a bust, but you're forgetting how bad Ced was.

[Whatever]

Ross had a disappointing year in a lot of ways, but you don't cut a #3 WR that scores 7 TD's. That's a lot of scoring production to replace, basically averaging out to a FG a game.

The weird thing with him is usually young WR's, they are most impressive between the 20's, then disappear in the red zone. Boyd had this issue. Ross is 180 degrees the other way.

[KillerGoose]

(01-01-2019, 02:35 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm not sure how you can improperly utilize a WR. He either runs the routes assigned and catches the ball or he doesn't.

I'm more inclined to believe that in college he was going against weak DBs as he played in the Pac 12 during a time when defense was optional. Now he's in the NFL and the quality of the DBs is much higher. He gets knocked off his routes.

His catch stats are his catch stats. There's no real way to sugar coat them. He has a small catch radius when compared to AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. It's just what it is.

However, he is good at running along the back of the endzone and out running the defender there and catching TDs. So that alone will give him targets in the NFL. I'm hoping he can become a better route runner.

As others have said, maybe a new HC will get more out of him. I'm also hoping the new HC will get more out of this team all over, especially the D.

To touch on your first point, some WRs have a full route tree, while some excel more in the short game etc. That’s where the utilization can go wrong. If you continuously send someone deep who isn’t good with deep routes, they won’t play well. That’s the thought here, is that perhaps Ross is being utilized more like a DeSean Jackson when he isn’t a DeSean Jackson.

For what it is worth, I’m coming off of this opinion. Early in the season, I didn’t see him getting many shallow routes and was frustrated because of this. As the season wore on, he received more looks in the short game. Overall, I did see him get open at times but nothing consistent. He needs to improve his release and fine tune his route running.

[Bengalitis]

(01-01-2019, 04:03 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Ross only makes $2.8 million next year.  I agree he has not shown much, but he is worth keeping around for peanuts just in case he does bust out.  Jerome Simpson had a total of one reception through his first two seasons and he went on to have a copuple of 50+ reception 700+ yd seasons. 

We have 2 great WRs, but after that we have nothing special at all.  Josh Malone was a huge disappointment fo me.  I watched him in college.  He is a great athlete with good ball skills.  But we were paper thin at WR this year and he still didn't produce.

This is obscene. $2.8 million.   Should be making the league minimum of $500k or whatever it is now.

Per google:The four-year minimum base salaries for players in this year's draft are as follows: $480,000 (Year 1), $555,000 (Year 2), $630,000 (Year 3) and $705,000 (Year 4). If eventually signed to a contract, each rookie drafted will get a four-year deal, whereas undrafted rookies are only eligible for three-year contracts.Apr 27, 2018

[*ochocincos*]

(01-01-2019, 02:35 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm not sure how you can improperly utilize a WR. He either runs the routes assigned and catches the ball or he doesn't.

I'm more inclined to believe that in college he was going against weak DBs as he played in the Pac 12 during a time when defense was optional. Now he's in the NFL and the quality of the DBs is much higher. He gets knocked off his routes.

His catch stats are his catch stats. There's no real way to sugar coat them. He has a small catch radius when compared to AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. It's just what it is.

However, he is good at running along the back of the endzone and out running the defender there and catching TDs. So that alone will give him targets in the NFL. I'm hoping he can become a better route runner.

As others have said, maybe a new HC will get more out of him. I'm also hoping the new HC will get more out of this team all over, especially the D.

John Ross was never going to excel against press coverage or jump balls. There's also nothing he can do about his catch radius.
He was 5'11", 188 lbs, and didn't have elite leaping ability (37.0 inch vert) at the Combine.
What he has is elite agility and speed.
A player can be improperly utilized if he's, for example, a shorter, smaller WR but having to win 50-50 balls. To better utilize a guy like John Ross, you need to have a QB who can hit him in stride deep downfield (neither Dalton nor Driskell can do) and/or throw him the ball in much shorter routes to increase his touches and take advantage of his elite speed and agility after-the-catch.

Here are some stats that I think should help explain why he was being underutilized...
According to www.playerprofiler.com, here's the "catchable percentage" for Ross, Boyd, and Green:

Ross - 56.6% (30 of 53 targets)
Boyd - 80.6% (87 of 108 targets)
Green - 77.9% (60 of 77 targets)

Target accuracy when throwing to the same three players (1-4 scale, >=3.0 is considered highly accurate throws, <=2.0 considered highly errant throws):
Ross - 2.2
Boyd - 2.8
Green 2.8

Average target distance for the same three players:
Ross - 14.5 yards (16th highest in league)
Boyd - 9.9 yards (71st highest in league)
Green - 13.6 yards (25th highest in league)

Drops:
Ross - 6
Boyd - 5
Green - 6

So Ross was being thrown deep routes often and only slightly above half of his targets were deemed "catchable."
He had the same number of drops as AJ Green and only one more than Boyd.
The QBs were much more errant on their throws to Ross than they were to Boyd and Green.

Look, I get it that many people felt that 9 was too high for Ross and they expect a player selected in the Top 10 to be nearly flawless in every aspect. But the Bengals picked where they picked, two WRs were taken before Ross, and they likely didn't feel they could risk taking him later or be able to trade back and still get him (they clearly wanted him). He's not as elite of a prospect as Green was overall, but Green was the first WR taken and was considered one of the best WRs to come into the league in the past decade. What is elite for Ross is his speed and agility, and he's not being used properly to take advantage of that elite trait. He also doesn't have a QB who can throw the ball deep accurately when he is being sent on those deep routes.

I really hope this post helps people understand. If people still can't understand the problem after I've done posts like this, they never will understand.

[SunsetBengal]

(01-01-2019, 03:39 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: John Ross is worse as a wide receiver,than what Cedric Ogbuehi is as an offensive lineman,and that’s saying alot.He just simply doesn’t have what it takes for nfl standards.He may have flashed in college,but he is not cut out for this league.Time to move on from him.

Hold on a minute.  As much disdain as I have toward John Ross, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that statement.  At least John Ross caught 6 passes for TD this season, whereas I'm not sure that Cedric Ogbuehi made 6 successful blocks in his entire life. 

[MasonDT70]

While hes been a disappointment for the most part, he isn't irredeemable. I think he need to be used more creatively. Our new coaches should look at how kc uses hill and try to emulate that.

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[*ochocincos*]

(01-01-2019, 06:17 PM)MasonDT70 Wrote: While hes been a disappointment for the most part, he isn't irredeemable. I think he need to be used more creatively. Our new coaches should look at how kc uses hill and try to emulate that.

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Bring in Eric Bieniemy as HC and you just might see Ross become a clone of Hill in the field.


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[bengalhoel]

(01-01-2019, 02:35 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm not sure how you can improperly utilize a WR. He either runs the routes assigned and catches the ball or he doesn't.

I'm more inclined to believe that in college he was going against weak DBs as he played in the Pac 12 during a time when defense was optional. Now he's in the NFL and the quality of the DBs is much higher. He gets knocked off his routes.

His catch stats are his catch stats. There's no real way to sugar coat them. He has a small catch radius when compared to AJ Green and Tyler Eifert. It's just what it is.

However, he is good at running along the back of the endzone and out running the defender there and catching TDs. So that alone will give him targets in the NFL. I'm hoping he can become a better route runner.

As others have said, maybe a new HC will get more out of him. I'm also hoping the new HC will get more out of this team all over, especially the D.

Have you seen how the Chiefs use Tyreke Hill?  He is one inch shorter and 5 pounds lighter.  Is there no way that we can figure out something like that? Something like the Steelers do when they line 3 up on one side of the field and run him across the middle. 

It seems like they have to do this in the Redzone when they run out of space. They cant just send Ross deep and hope our O line gives more than 2 seconds to throw it.

[Bengalitis]

(01-01-2019, 06:17 PM)MasonDT70 Wrote: While hes been a disappointment for the most part, he isn't irredeemable. I think he need to be used more creatively. Our new coaches should look at how kc uses hill and try to emulate that.

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Comparing ROSSSSSSSSSS (where are you?) to KC's Hill. Ouch, that hurt.

[BengalChris]

(01-01-2019, 04:58 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: To touch on your first point, some WRs have a full route tree, while some excel more in the short game etc. That’s where the utilization can go wrong. If you continuously send someone deep who isn’t good with deep routes, they won’t play well. That’s the thought here, is that perhaps Ross is being utilized more like a DeSean Jackson when he isn’t a DeSean Jackson.

For what it is worth, I’m coming off of this opinion. Early in the season, I didn’t see him getting many shallow routes and was frustrated because of this. As the season wore on, he received more looks in the short game. Overall, I did see him get open at times but nothing consistent. He needs to improve his release and fine tune his route running.

When Ross was drafted I objected loudly. I kept being told that Ross could run the full route tree, repeatedly. I've yet to see it out of him.

(01-01-2019, 06:31 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Have you seen how the Chiefs use Tyreke Hill?  He is one inch shorter and 5 pounds lighter.  Is there no way that we can figure out something like that? Something like the Steelers do when they line 3 up on one side of the field and run him across the middle. 

It seems like they have to do this in the Redzone when they run out of space. They cant just send Ross deep and hope our O line gives more than 2 seconds to throw it.

Tyreke Hill would do Tyreke Hill things if he were in Cinci. Doesn't mean that Ross can do those things. If he could do those things he'd do those things. I really cannot imagine that Marvin Lewis would have intentionally kept Ross down.