Why do free agent linebackers come here and wither?

[THE PISTONS]

I don't want to use the word fail, but over the past several seasons we've signed guys to 1 year deals and they've came here and not achieved the success of their previous stop.

Any theories?

Preston Brown continues the trend unfortunately so far.

When we've signed these LB's...we've thought that we were getting great deals in most cases. Especially Minter and Brown.

[Circleville Guy]

I think that fans get hyped over past stats vs. actual talent. I think that Caleb Miller has the most tackles on the team before, was he a real good LB?

[*wildcats forever*]

(11-05-2018, 01:16 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't want to use the word fail, but over the past several seasons we've signed guys to 1 year deals and they've came here and not achieved the success of their previous stop.

Any theories?

Preston Brown continues the trend unfortunately so far.

When we've signed these LB's...we've thought that we were getting great deals in most cases. Especially Minter and Brown.

I though it was generally assumed that only LB's on the downside of their careers need only apply here.

(11-05-2018, 01:34 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I think that fans get hyped over past stats vs. actual talent. I think that Caleb Miller has the most tackles on the team before, was he a real good LB?

I doubt if Caleb would recognize many RB's faces - most of his tackles were from behind .... 8 yards or so downfield ....

[Circleville Guy]

(11-05-2018, 02:43 AM)wildcats forever Wrote: I though it was generally assumed that only LB's on the downside of their careers need only apply here.


I doubt if Caleb would recognize many RB's faces - most of his tackles were from behind .... 8 yards or so downfield ....

That was kinda my point, stats don’t show the whole picture of a guys actual talent.

[*psychdoctor*]

I think it is the scheme and coaching.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(11-05-2018, 04:02 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: That was kinda my point, stats don’t show the whole picture of a guys actual talent.

You know what's crazy? Caleb Miller made it to the cover of Sports Illustrated!

[lone bengal]

A lot of the free agent linebackers that signed here we’re way past there prime. Carlos Dansby was 35 and Aj Hawk was past his prime as well. A guy like James Harrison didn’t really make sense scheme wise.

[WeezyBengal]

Like someone else said...

The guys they bring in just arent that great. I blame scouting and whoever actually WANTS to bring these guys in. Whether thats Marvin, Mike, Duke Tobin, etc.

There is a reason there wasnt a huge market for Preston Brown and Minter. They were typical Bengals move. Average to below average veteran linebackers who signed a reasonable deal for a low number of years. The Bengals have never been serious about bringing in a good or great linebacker via free agency.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-05-2018, 08:02 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think it is the scheme and coaching.

I just dont buy that. Playing linebacker isnt rocket science. Go out and tackle the ball carrier or defend your area of the field when the team is passing. These guys were veteran players, they should know how to play the position by the time they are brought in. 

That also doesnt explain why some of our linebackers have been good over the past few years (Burfict) and why some have been bad or average. To me, its a talent disparity. You can literally SEE how slow some of our linebackers move.

[J.Moore]

Doesn't make any difference the position. The Bengals organization is not a winning organization from ownership on down thru the entire coaching staff. Coaches hands are tied behind their backs mostly. Players careers mostly fail here. Marvin Lewis is a good, honorable man but he doesn't have the ability to take the team all the way. After 16 seasons it breeds failure.

Such a difference in watching winning organizations take control of games when they get a chance. Last night the Patriots took control of the game against Green Bay. Recovered a fumble and went 50 yds. for a TD. Forced GB a 3 and out got ball back and scored a TD again. 14 points in a couple of minutes to seal the win. THAT is how winners do it. Bengals would have gone 3 and out. Steelers, another winning organization that finds ways to win when it counts. The Saints this year look awful good both sides of the ball. This Sunday will be a practice game for them. The Bengals as is most of the league just isn't in the same class.

[*ochocincos*]

I thought the same. I think it really might come down to scheme and maybe lack of fit. The Bengals really need someone who is more sideline-to-sideline to be successful on this team. At least with Hawk, Brown, and Minter they haven't had that. Those guys were/are more downhill defenders rather than sideline-to-sideline. And those downhill guys can work well in a scheme that emphasizes attacking the LOS more than covering in space, but that doesn't seem to be the scheme the Bengals run (at least based on results lol).

[THE PISTONS]

(11-05-2018, 11:22 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: I just dont buy that. Playing linebacker isnt rocket science. Go out and tackle the ball carrier or defend your area of the field when the team is passing. These guys were veteran players, they should know how to play the position by the time they are brought in. 

That also doesnt explain why some of our linebackers have been good over the past few years (Burfict) and why some have been bad or average. To me, its a talent disparity. You can literally SEE how slow some of our linebackers move.

I agree that most are...but Brown led the league in tackles last season. While I agree the tackles could be downfield...if I recall correctly, he graded out in the upper 60's or lower 70's by PFF so be was an above average guy. Here, he's in the 50's.

That's a huge drop-off in play.

We do tend to go for the slow/lumbering LB's. It seems like that is the exact opposite of what the league requires.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-05-2018, 11:22 AM)J.Moore Wrote: Doesn't make any difference the position. The Bengals organization is not a winning organization from ownership on down thru the entire coaching staff. Coaches hands are tied behind their backs mostly. Players careers mostly fail here. Marvin Lewis is a good, honorable man but he doesn't have the ability to take the team all the way. After 16 seasons it breeds failure.

Such a difference in watching winning organizations take control of games when they get a chance. Last night the Patriots took control of the game against Green Bay. Recovered a fumble and went 50 yds. for a TD. Forced GB a 3 and out got ball back and scored a TD again. 14 points in a couple of minutes to seal the win. THAT is how winners do it. Bengals would have gone 3 and out. Steelers, another winning organization that finds ways to win when it counts. The Saints this year look awful good both sides of the ball. This Sunday will be a practice game for them. The Bengals as is most of the league just isn't in the same class.

So losing organizational culture?

I do think there's something to that. But, it's interesting that guys like Green, Atkins, and Dunlap sign extensions to stay here. Atkins could have likely went to any team and he stayed here.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-05-2018, 11:25 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I thought the same. I think it really might come down to scheme and maybe lack of fit. The Bengals really need someone who is more sideline-to-sideline to be successful on this team. At least with Hawk, Brown, and Minter they haven't had that. Those guys were/are more downhill defenders rather than sideline-to-sideline. And those downhill guys can work well in a scheme that emphasizes attacking the LOS more than covering in space, but that doesn't seem to be the scheme the Bengals run (at least based on results lol).

To take it a step further, look how many LB's we've drafted that washed out.

Lots of teams draft a LB and start him year 1 and get production. Burfict and Odell Thurman are the only guys I recall us being able to say that about under Lewis.

[Sled21]

(11-05-2018, 11:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree that most are...but Brown led the league in tackles last season. While I agree the tackles could be downfield...if I recall correctly, he graded out in the upper 60's or lower 70's by PFF so be was an above average guy. Here, he's in the 50's.

That's a huge drop-off in play.

He's in a new system, and playing with backup linebackers beside him. We have to give him a chance to succeed.....

[Pat5775]

When is the last time we drafted a linebacker early in the draft? Keith Rivers? That was over a decade ago... Its beyond past time to draft a linebacker in the early rounds

[sandwedge]

(11-05-2018, 11:29 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I agree that most are...but Brown led the league in tackles last season. While I agree the tackles could be downfield...if I recall correctly, he graded out in the upper 60's or lower 70's by PFF so be was an above average guy. Here, he's in the 50's.

That's a huge drop-off in play.

We do tend to go for the slow/lumbering LB's. It seems like that is the exact opposite of what the league requires.

As for slow lumbering LBs, I addressed that in another thread last week.. RPOs are killing LBs, the 250 LBs are a thing of the pass. The days of offenses just lining up and running straight ahead are over. We need LBs that can fly sideline to sideline and can drop back, not 15 yds and cover TEs or RBs. 

[Whatever]

(11-05-2018, 11:42 AM)Pat5775 Wrote: When is the last time we drafted a linebacker early in the draft? Keith Rivers? That was over a decade ago... Its beyond past time to draft a linebacker in the early rounds

Maualuga iirc, but there have been a ton of misses in the 3rd.

[WeezyBengal]

(11-05-2018, 12:19 PM)sandwedge Wrote: As for slow lumbering LBs, I addressed that in another thread last week.. RPOs are killing LBs, the 250 LBs are a thing of the pass. The days of offenses just lining up and running straight ahead are over. We need LBs that can fly sideline to sideline and can drop back, not 15 yds and cover TEs or RBs. 

Yep, pretty much this. 

It actually kind of terrifying that the organization hasnt realized this yet and hasnt done anything about it. 

[Bengalitis]

(11-05-2018, 08:02 AM)psychdoctor Wrote: I think it is the scheme and coaching.

Could be this. Remember in your youth you've had teachers in school that inspire you, get you to work and you do as they say. While others you feel uninterested, indifferent with work and you rather do other things. This could be the locker room culture at PB. Remember when Chad became a "distraction" because he was more influential than Marvin.

PS. This probably quicken the exit of Carson too.