"They stood around killing grass"

[Shake n Blake]

By the numbers PA was awful for a long while, his past few draft picks (Bodine, Og, Fisher) were all terrible, so his eye for talent is blind. Now the guy has been fired twice in 6 months and probably will never work in the NFL again...and Fred is still defending him. Amazing.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: By the numbers PA was awful for a long while, his past few draft picks (Bodine, Og, Fisher) were all terrible, so his eye for talent is blind. Now the guy has been fired twice in 6 months and probably will never work in the NFL again...and Fred is still defending him. Amazing.

Honestly, he owes Mikey a HUGE debt of gratitude......I'm talking bigly YUGE.

Were it not for Son of Paul, he'd have probably been out of the league years ago.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 05:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: By the numbers PA was awful for a long while, his past few draft picks (Bodine, Og, Fisher) were all terrible, so his eye for talent is blind. Now the guy has been fired twice in 6 months and probably will never work in the NFL again...and Fred is still defending him. Amazing.

PA was not awful for a long time.  I have posted sources to prove this is incorrect.

And I agree that he had to go after the Bodine, Ogbuehi, and Fisher so I don't know why you are trying to say that I am "still defending him".

[McC]

(11-07-2018, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: PA was not awful for a long time.  I have posted sources to prove this is incorrect.

And I agree that he had to go after the Bodine, Ogbuehi, and Fisher so I don't know why you are trying to say that I am "still defending him".

SI giving him him some fictitional award means a whole lot less than actually looking at his line's performance and in 2016, it was not good.  In 2017, even worse.  

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 05:33 PM)McC Wrote: SI giving him him some fictitional award means a whole lot less than actually looking at his line's performance and in 2016, it was not good.  In 2017, even worse.  

All one has to do is look back at the run game numbers over the last decade plus and see that he was clearly lacking.....

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 05:35 PM)Wyche Wrote: All one has to do is look back at the run game numbers over the last decade plus and see that he was clearly lacking.....

According to ProFootballOutsiders al lot of that was due to the fact that our running backs were often close to the bottom of the league in "second level yards" and long runs.

It is difficult to divide blame and credit for rushing success between RBs and O-lines, but PO uses a formula that gives more credit to O-line for losses and zero gains and more credit to RBs for yards gained more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage.  According to them our run blocking was not that bad at all.

[ezekiel23]

(11-07-2018, 10:25 AM)Whatever Wrote: Results are more important than methods.  He did put together some great units during his time here, although that seems to mainly be because he had a good eye for talent.  As soon as he started missing on premium draft picks, everything fell apart.

He passed on RG DeCastro in the draft to take Zeitler.DeCastro goes to the Pro Bowl every year.Traded up to get Russell Bodine,and went nuts over RT Ogbeuhi,drafted him in the first round.Then drafted Fisher in the second round!?!?

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 05:43 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: He passed on RG DeCastro in the draft to take Zeitler.

DeCastro was drafted 24th overall.  Zeitler went #27.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 05:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: According to ProFootballOutsiders al lot of that was due to the fact that our running backs were often close to the bottom of the league in "second level yards" and long runs.

It is difficult to divide blame and credit for rushing success between RBs and O-lines, but PO uses a formula that gives more credit to O-line for losses and zero gains and more credit to RBs for yards gained more than 10 yards past the line of scrimmage.  According to them our run blocking was not that bad at all.

Which years are you looking at?  I would agree a little bit during the Hill era, for sure.  With Benson?  I'd be skeptical.  He could break some tackles and pick up tough yards, but his YPC was never very spectacular, with the exception of the 09 season....where we ran a lot of unbalanced sets.  Gio is a gamebreaker.  Look at his YPC from the beginning of last season to the last six weeks after we abandoned Piano Paul's scheme.  He went from sub 4 to over 5 per, if memory serves.  Mixon really turned it on then as well, and is above 4 per this season.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 05:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: DeCastro was drafted 24th overall.  Zeitler went #27.

Correct.....fuggin' Stoolers.  

However, the Bodine, Og, and Fisher debacles are squarely on him.  I can somewhat excuse the two tackle flops.....I mean, at least he benched them, but sticking with Bodine that long is just asinine....even worse was the incessant defense and claiming a "witch hunt".

[Whatever]

(11-07-2018, 05:43 PM)ezekiel23 Wrote: He passed on RG DeCastro in the draft to take Zeitler.DeCastro goes to the Pro Bowl every year.Traded up to get Russell Bodine,and went nuts over RT Ogbeuhi,drafted him in the first round.Then drafted Fisher in the second round!?!?

To be fair, DeCastro was on the board and we traded down, so he didn't technically pass on him.

We were trashed for taking Willie Anderson.  Experts were like "You don't take a RT in the Top 10.". Willie is on HoF ballots now as the best to ever play that position.

Levi Jones was supposed to be a ridiculous reach, and he turned out to be a franchise caliber LT.

Of course, he was responsible for getting future HoF LT Andrew Whitworth in the 2nd.  He also had 2 G's become the highest paid NFL history in Steinbach and Zeitler.

The last few years were a train wreck, and he needed to  go, but the man was responsible for drafting some of the greatest players in the history of the franchise.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 05:55 PM)Wyche Wrote:   Gio is a gamebreaker.

Not really.  In 6 years in the NFL he has a grand total of ONE run longer than 40 yards and only 14 over 20.

Here are the number of runs he had over 20 yards and where he ranked in the league

'13... 3... 34th
'14... 2... 45th
'15... 2... 51st
'16... 0...111th
'17... 5... 17th

[Circleville Guy]

So, Lap saw players standing around and not having to practice all year but the OC, HeadCoach and Owner didn’t notice or didn’t care enough to force them to work???

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 06:12 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: So, Lap saw players standing around and not having to practice all year but the OC, HeadCoach and Owner didn’t notice or didn’t care enough to force them to work???

Any high school coach can go out an run players to death. 

In coaching, like everything else, it is about working smarter instead of just working harder.

[sandwedge]

(11-07-2018, 06:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Any high school coach can go out an run players to death. 

In coaching, like everything else, it is about working smarter instead of just working harder.

You have missed the jist of this thread, they were not working, but just stood around not doing a thing. Has nothing to do with making athletes run.....

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 06:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not really.  In 6 years in the NFL he has a grand total of ONE run longer than 40 yards and only 14 over 20.

Here are the number of runs he had over 20 yards and where he ranked in the league

'13... 3... 34th
'14... 2... 45th
'15... 2... 51st
'16... 0...111th
'17... 5... 17th

Surprising....but there have been some injury shortened seasons, and limited snaps every year. When given a lane from the backfield, or on a screen, he is a threat to take it to the house. See ATL just this year for example. The crazy run against MIA....etc. 

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-07-2018, 06:35 PM)sandwedge Wrote: You have missed the jist of this thread, they were not working, but just stood around not doing a thing. Has nothing to do with making athletes run.....

Maybe they were doing the ketchup test?

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 06:35 PM)sandwedge Wrote: You have missed the jist of this thread, they were not working, but just stood around not doing a thing. Has nothing to do with making athletes run.....

I guarantee they were not "not doing a thing".  They were practicing.  Just not as hard as under Pollack.

Listening to lap it seems like some of this is personal with him.  He fawns over how everyone has to compete for their job every day under Pollack, yet Pollack has not made a single change in the lineup.

And this whole "killing grass" line sounds stupid.  You kill more grass on a practice field by running than by standing still.  Maybe Lap juts isn't very smart.  You don't have to re-sod a practice field if everyone just stands around and does nothing.

[*Synric*]

(11-07-2018, 07:44 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I guarantee they were not "not doing a thing".  They were practicing.  Just not as hard as under Pollack.

Listening to lap it seems like some of this is personal with him.  He fawns over how everyone has to compete for their job every day under Pollack, yet Pollack has not made a single change in the lineup.

And this whole "killing grass" line sounds stupid.  You kill more grass on a practice field by running than by standing still.  Maybe Lap juts isn't very smart.  You don't have to re-sod a practice field if everyone just stands around and does nothing.

Lap was accepted to Harvard. He didn't go but he could have...

The point he was making things that sit around kill grass.

[fredtoast]

(11-07-2018, 07:49 PM)Synric Wrote: Lap was accepted to Harvard. He didn't go but he could have...

Probably into their janitorial training program.

Lap was so smart he left the Bengals for a 10 year contract with a USFL team.