Still just sick over this...

[Luvnit2]

(09-05-2015, 10:27 PM)BengalChris Wrote: We almost never draft straight best player available, and few teams do. Instead position needs factor heavily in the Bengals draft picks. We were going to draft two OTs this year regardless and one of them was going to be in the 1st round no matter what. That's just how this team drafts.

The team tries to fill a position of need (or a position it believes is going to be a near future need) with the best player it can draft. That's different than BPA.

In 2010 we needed a TE and we had Ocho and Owens for starting WRs. So we draft Gresham while Dez Bryant was still on the board. The fact is we were going to draft one of the top TEs that year no matter what and no dangling super star was going to stop us.

Hindsight is always better and no one really knows what Mikey B sees anyway.

This is just beyond dumb.

Fisher was ranked far ahead of Lockett so in this case the Bengals FO grabbed the best player available and no disputing it.

Let's look at the 2015 draft. Fisher was a top ranked OT and projected 1st round pick or early second round pick. Lockett was a projected 2nd or 3rd round pick.

We had issues at both OL and WR for the future due to contracts in 2016. We had more immediate concerns at WR due to injuries of M. Jones and AJ Green in 2014.

So when faced to take most needed position, we took a 4th OT over a WR as we had already addressed the OT 2016 situation.

All of this is what makes your attempted trashing of Tobin, Katie, MB and ML make you look like you have no football IQ.

[PDub80]

It's really simple....

- Pacman is as dynamic a returner as there is in the NFL. The Bengals put him back there when they need a spark or potential big play to flip the field. He doesn't do it on the reg because they don't want to wear him out or risk injury.
- Tate is a reliable, versatile option and the Bengals value that.
- Alford is a small slot guy with speed. They do NOT value that nearly as much. Thus, he will sit until he proves he is reliable. TYLER LOCKETT WOULD BE IN A SIMILAR SITUATION HERE.

I am wondering if the Bengals lack of interest in small receivers is because of the blocking schemes they run on running plays and the physicality of the AFCN. That would make sense to me.

[PDub80]

(09-05-2015, 10:27 PM)BengalChris Wrote: We almost never draft straight best player available, and few teams do. Instead position needs factor heavily in the Bengals draft picks. We were going to draft two OTs this year regardless and one of them was going to be in the 1st round no matter what. That's just how this team drafts.

The team tries to fill a position of need (or a position it believes is going to be a near future need) with the best player it can draft. That's different than BPA.

In 2010 we needed a TE and we had Ocho and Owens for starting WRs. So we draft Gresham while Dez Bryant was still on the board. The fact is we were going to draft one of the top TEs that year no matter what and no dangling super star was going to stop us.

Hindsight is always better and no one really knows what Mikey B sees anyway.

- In 2010 they signed Owens on the eve of training camp..... well AFTER the draft in 2010.
- Dez Bryant had so many red flags coming out of school I don't blame the Bengals for looking elsewhere at the time.
- The way the Bengals were being ran changed dramatically and almost immediately after the 2010 season thanks to Carson Palmer's stand and public shaming of the organization.

FACT: The Bengals have been one of, if not THE best drafting team in the NFL as a whole over the last 5 drafts and have built what I would consider one of the top 5 rosters in football for 2015 and a top 10 roster in the years leading up to now. So, I guess I am fine with their draft strategy and accept it without prejudice. In NFL terms 5 seasons is a generation ago and to have to go back that far to find a legit gripe using hindsight - and a paper thin one at that - speaks volumes to how impactful the changes made back then have been.

Again, the Bengals are a first class organization when it comes to drafting, players being happy, contract management (The Cap), player retention, in the community, etc. I surmise that the investments made in changing culminate into an exciting year for the Bengals on the field in 2015.

[jjvolt]

I assumed it was marvin jones. Not sure what the lewis is about. I suppose it is corny play on words involving our coach.

[McC]

(09-06-2015, 11:48 AM)jjvolt Wrote: I assumed it was marvin jones. Not sure what the lewis is about. I suppose it is corny play on words involving our coach.

No.  It's his middle name.

[BengalChris]

(09-06-2015, 10:15 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: This is just beyond dumb.

Fisher was ranked far ahead of Lockett so in this case the Bengals FO grabbed the best player available and no disputing it.

Let's look at the 2015 draft. Fisher was a top ranked OT and projected 1st round pick or early second round pick. Lockett was a projected 2nd or 3rd round pick.

We had issues at both OL and WR for the future due to contracts in 2016. We had more immediate concerns at WR due to injuries of M. Jones and AJ Green in 2014.

So when faced to take most needed position, we took a 4th OT over a WR as we had already addressed the OT 2016 situation.

All of this is what makes your attempted trashing of Tobin, Katie, MB and ML make you look like you have no football IQ.

(09-06-2015, 10:37 AM)PDub80 Wrote: - In 2010 they signed Owens on the eve of training camp..... well AFTER the draft in 2010.
- Dez Bryant had so many red flags coming out of school I don't blame the Bengals for looking elsewhere at the time.
- The way the Bengals were being ran changed dramatically and almost immediately after the 2010 season thanks to Carson Palmer's stand and public shaming of the organization.

FACT: The Bengals have been one of, if not THE best drafting team in the NFL as a whole over the last 5 drafts and have built what I would consider one of the top 5 rosters in football for 2015 and a top 10 roster in the years leading up to now. So, I guess I am fine with their draft strategy and accept it without prejudice. In NFL terms 5 seasons is a generation ago and to have to go back that far to find a legit gripe using hindsight - and a paper thin one at that - speaks volumes to how impactful the changes made back then have been.

Again, the Bengals are a first class organization when it comes to drafting, players being happy, contract management (The Cap), player retention, in the community, etc. I surmise that the investments made in changing culminate into an exciting year for the Bengals on the field in 2015.

I'm not saying the Bengals draft philosophy is wrong. Just pointing out that we do not go straight BPA, not matter what people say or think. Positions of need have a bigger affect on the selections than most realize and it is part of the team's player ranking system.

You combine that with the team's reluctance to trade picks (either up or down) and you get our draft philosophy. Fisher could have been drafted later, but not likely when the Bengals picked in the 3rd round, so the team took him at their spot in the 2nd.

We have a large number of FAs end of this year and the team wanted two future starting OT from this draft. Not saying it's wrong. Just saying that the team wasn't going to pick a WR on day one or two. If I remember correctly, the Bengals let it be known that WR was not a priority in the draft this year.

But going back to 2010, if the old boards were open, many wanted Bryant over Gresham and they turned out to be correct. But there are other times where one thinks a player is better and they turn out like less than decent.


You can't look at media projections of rounds and expect that to translated to the draft. 32 teams passed on Fisher in the first, and that's after we took Og and the LSU kid became undraftable. So, Fisher couldn't have been as highly regarded as that by teams.

[McC]

(09-06-2015, 12:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm not saying the Bengals draft philosophy is wrong. Just pointing out that we do not go straight BPA, not matter what people say or think. Positions of need have a bigger affect on the selections than most realize and it is part of the team's player ranking system.

You combine that with the team's reluctance to trade picks (either up or down) and you get our draft philosophy. Fisher could have been drafted later, but not likely when the Bengals picked in the 3rd round, so the team took him at their spot in the 2nd.

We have a large number of FAs end of this year and the team wanted two future starting OT from this draft. Not saying it's wrong. Just saying that the team wasn't going to pick a WR on day one or two.

But going back to 2010, if the old boards were open, many wanted Bryant over Gresham and they turned out to be correct. But there are other times where one thinks a player is better and they turn out like less than decent.


You can't look at media projections of rounds and expect that to translated to the draft. 32 teams passed on Fisher in the first, and that's after we took Og and the LSU kid became undraftable. So, Fisher couldn't have been as highly regarded as that by teams.

I would say it's BPA, with need settling ties.  The most accurate way to say it is they stick to their board, with need settling ties.

[jjvolt]

(09-05-2015, 08:33 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Oh God, another person who knows him personally...

First Cobi's buddy now this.

And I have an honours university degree in Communications and Italian, so yeah, I think I know how to speak/write correctly.

Lockett is not on our team and we don't need him; we don't give a shit. Period. Take it elsewhere.

You may be good at Italian but obviously you are not as good comprehending English. No where did I say that I know lockett personally. Also I did not say that you spell or write incorrectly. For someone who is supposed to be so educated you come off as anything but.

[jjvolt]

(09-06-2015, 12:01 PM)McC Wrote: No.  It's his middle name.

Ok...thank you.

[jjvolt]

(09-05-2015, 09:43 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Which is why we needed the upgrade at rb since Benson wasn't providing...and once again there was a need for Gio while there isn't a necessarily a need for drafting a player only for KR ability. You're upset because we didn't draft a supposedly "elite value" kick returner. You must be upset we didn't get Jarryd Hayne either then huh? Lol once again, it's an analysis from preseason and you're not even willing to see what Alford or Fisher can do in the regular season...

I believe gio was drafted as a compliment to law firm not benson.

Never said we shouldve taken lockett only for his returning ability.

Alford hasnt shown much yet and we probably won't see much of fisher. He is a reserve player and is nowhere near ready to play.

[McC]

(09-06-2015, 01:37 PM)jjvolt Wrote: I believe gio was drafted as a compliment to law firm not benson.

Never said we shouldve taken lockett only for his returning ability.

Alford hasnt shown much yet and we probably won't see much of fisher. He is a reserve player and is nowhere near ready to play.

I think we'll see more of Alford once the season starts.  Hue will have special plays for him that he wouldn't have wanted to show in the preseason, imo.

We'll see Fisher in heavy packages as a TE.

[GodFather]

(09-06-2015, 10:37 AM)PDub80 Wrote: FACT: The Bengals have been one of, if not THE best drafting team in the NFL as a whole over the last 5 drafts and have built what I would consider one of the top 5 rosters in football for 2015 and a top 10 roster in the years leading up to now. So, I guess I am fine with their draft strategy and accept it without prejudice. In NFL terms 5 seasons is a generation ago and to have to go back that far to find a legit gripe using hindsight - and a paper thin one at that - speaks volumes to how impactful the changes made back then have been.

Again, the Bengals are a first class organization when it comes to drafting, players being happy, contract management (The Cap), player retention, in the community, etc. I surmise that the investments made in changing culminate into an exciting year for the Bengals on the field in 2015.

I call bullshit. Show me the past 5 years our drafts and they're outcomes with a minimum of a year playing versus other teams drafts. Show me how they are the best drafting team. They're not. I don't think they are the worst. I think they are doing a good job. But the best? No way.

[Marlon23]

(09-05-2015, 11:21 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Most experts and many "other fans" picked us to beat the Colts on the road in the playoffs last year.

"Bungles' is a term used by people who need to be negative about their own team.

Did someone use the B word get them outta here...   

[type_stripe]

(09-06-2015, 01:37 PM)jjvolt Wrote: I believe gio was drafted as a compliment to law firm not benson.

Never said we shouldve taken lockett only for his returning ability.

Alford hasnt shown much yet and we probably won't see much of fisher. He is a reserve player and is nowhere near ready to play.

yup meant to type bjge, my apologies. You could say it was to "compliment" BJGE, but realistically if your primary back before Gio was trusted more for ball security than gaining solid yardage(averaged 3.9 yards in 2012, 3.4 in 2013, 6.4 yards per catch in 2012, 1.4 in 2013 vs. his only 5 career fumbles), it was an upgrade. Gio on the other hand since then has averaged (4.0 avg in 2013, 4.1 in 2014- even with Hill, plus 9.2 yards per catch in 2013, and 8.1 in 2014)). It wasnt to only compliment, Gio is here and BJGE isn't therefore its an upgrade. albeit part one of the two part Gio/Jeremy upgrade process. 

I know thats not what you only were saying, but looking through the posts you're talking about our bad returning ability (which is fairly decent) and how Lockett would be an upgrade we need. If you're talking about him as a WR, we have a large group of receiving threats, so wht would be the chances of seeing him much lining up with the ones? Eventually fisher should have a starting role, may not be immediate but he will. Can't say the same for Lockett. He'd still be behind AJ, MLJ, and Sanu. And since we don't line up with a slot receiver every down, idk how you can say Lockett would be seen more of (aside from KR/PR). 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-05-2015, 01:02 PM)PDub80 Wrote: I predict our top receiving weapons targets breaking down in this order...

Green
Eifert
MLJ
Burkhead (will start slow but will get Sanu's targets as season goes on)
Sanu (opposite of Burkhead's targets)
Bernard
Little
Hill
Tate
Kroft

You forgot Hewitt but pretty spot on except for i think Kroft might get a little more snaps than you might think.

The coaches are happy with Kroft's blocking and he can catch the ball too.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-05-2015, 04:51 PM)Junglejuice Wrote: Actually they only have 2 big money contracts to worry about.

Green and Iloka.

After that its all small change 1 and 2 year contract guys.
Cant keep the same guys forever.

I think the Bengals handle contracts and wizardry of the cap about as well if not better than any other team in the NFL

Yep

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-06-2015, 11:48 AM)jjvolt Wrote: I assumed it was marvin jones. Not sure what the lewis is about. I suppose it is corny play on words involving our coach.

It would be confusing to just call him MJ as we already have another MJ on the team.

I think it is pretty straight forward to use his middle name.

[type_stripe]

(09-06-2015, 02:13 PM)GodFather Wrote: I call bullshit. Show me the past 5 years our drafts and they're outcomes with a minimum of a year playing versus other teams drafts. Show me how they are the best drafting team. They're not. I don't think they are the worst. I think they are doing a good job. But the best? No way.

I think we've drafted 5 pro bowlers since 2009 and the only other team to do that was Pitt. But we still have all 5. I think that shows how good our draft has been recently considering we've only had about 2 other pro bowlers in the entire decade. 

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-06-2015, 02:50 PM)type_stripe Wrote: I think we've drafted 5 pro bowlers since 2009 and the only other team to do that was Pitt. But we still have all 5. I think that shows how good our draft has been recently considering we've only had about 2 other pro bowlers in the entire decade. 

Yeah, we have definately been one of the best if not the best drafting teams since 2009 IMHO.

Duke Tobin and the boys know whatsup.

[PDub80]

(09-06-2015, 12:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I'm not saying the Bengals draft philosophy is wrong. Just pointing out that we do not go straight BPA, not matter what people say or think. Positions of need have a bigger affect on the selections than most realize and it is part of the team's player ranking system.

You combine that with the team's reluctance to trade picks (either up or down) and you get our draft philosophy. Fisher could have been drafted later, but not likely when the Bengals picked in the 3rd round, so the team took him at their spot in the 2nd.

We have a large number of FAs end of this year and the team wanted two future starting OT from this draft. Not saying it's wrong. Just saying that the team wasn't going to pick a WR on day one or two. If I remember correctly, the Bengals let it be known that WR was not a priority in the draft this year.

But going back to 2010, if the old boards were open, many wanted Bryant over Gresham and they turned out to be correct. But there are other times where one thinks a player is better and they turn out like less than decent.


You can't look at media projections of rounds and expect that to translated to the draft. 32 teams passed on Fisher in the first, and that's after we took Og and the LSU kid became undraftable. So, Fisher couldn't have been as highly regarded as that by teams.

- I think the Bengals use their own formula to come up with their own BPA but also factor in need, depth, and future contracts. This is working well so far, so I think it's a + !

- The Bengals traded picks as recently as the 2014 draft for Bodine who is underwhelming so far.

- Think about this.... The Browns "win the draft" every year based on activity alone, but have outsmarted themselves immensely. WITHOUT their jockeying around the draft board you realize that right now on their roster they could have Julio Jones, Sammy Watkins, & Teddy Bridgewater.... among others? Pretty sure that long ago someone in the Browns FO burned an original copy of "The Catcher in the Rye" which has now put a conspiracy theory curse in their draft room.

There are a few instances both ways I can point to where the Bengals almost traded and didn't that are "whew!" or "dang it!" moments. I guarantee all teams have those. Tough to knock the Bengals for theirs when staying put has yielded such strong results, sin't it?

- I wish they would have used one of their 3rd rounders this year on Collins from LSU, but I get why they didn't.

- Bryant could have also turned out like Justin Blackmon - another talented but troubled kid from O(k)SU, too. Dallas has had to commit serious resources to help Dez and I don't know and don't blame the Bengals for not wanting the headache. At the time you never know. That draft I actually wanted Gronk, but he had back issues and surgeries that were red flags, too. Gresham was a bummer for me, but sometimes you swing and miss.

- Media projections are interesting and are fun to look back and talk about when analyzing this stuff. I look at guys like Marvin Jones who was projected as a 2nd or 3rd rounder and the Bengals got him in the 5th. If draft experts could look back in time, if he has a repeat of his 2013 season this year - after missing 2014 - he would project as a mid to late first rounder. Same thing with Geno Atkins. 4th rounder, but would be a top 5 pick in his draft class knowing what we know now.

That's why I look at the Bengals draft this year and think it's a home run all the way. They didn't NEED a WR at all. MLJ is a monster and AJ is top 5. Slot is handled by Eifert, who should be top shelf as well and I actually love that the Bengals went Patriots and shifted a guy like Burkhead into the slot. THAT kind of flexibility is what wins championships.

- The reason so many FAs are up this season is because it is one of the first ones since the new CBA which requires rookies to play out deals a certain length of time before extensions. The Bengals have a lot of players they have drafted still on the roster so they are in a weird spot. I don't see it as such a big deal as the older FAs are old enough to renegotiate for reasonable amounts and only one guy, Green, should be up for a block buster deal. Also, Leon Hall is taking up $10 freaking million dollars in cap space. After this season that will go a long way spread over several guys.