The Mike and Marvin Show an Epic Fail

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 06:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: Teams that have talent, but are poorly coached play balls out for the first half, then put it on cruise control for second half and have to hold off comebacks in the end.  Or, they sleepwalk through the first half and have to mount comebacks to win . They commit mental errors at costly times.

Sound familiar?

This makes no sense.  Teams that are poorly coached make the same mistakes all through games.

[Lucidus]

The combination of Mr. Brown and coach Lewis has indeed rendered very unfortunate results as it pertains to what should be the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl title and the minimal goal of at least some playoff success.

The combination itself has proven to be a rather unfortunate pairing. On one hand, you have an owner / general manager who is widely referenced as among the league's worst, if not the actual worst. On the other hand, you have a head coach that seems to be incredibly out of his element when the spotlight burns the brightest, most often wilting under it's judgement glare.

The combination of these two gentlemen, and their individual shortcomings and deficiencies, would seem to radically reduce the probability of any possible success in postseason play, regardless of how much time is allotted to that effort.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2018, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes no sense.  Teams that are poorly coached make the same mistakes all through games.

I think he's talking adjusting to your opponent's adjustments.

[BengalChris]

(11-20-2018, 06:11 PM)Wyche Wrote: You have a good point.  Look at Ken Anderson.  He had some good seasons, but was being booed at home.  Enter Forrest Gregg.  Sometimes a change at the top is all that is needed to get players playing to the best of their abilities....i.e being set up for success.

Forrest Gregg was great for the Bengals and his disciplined approached put everyone on notice.

Remember the first game of that season when Gregg benched Anderson and Turk Schonert came in and led the team back for a win? If you didn't perform for Gregg, you were on the bench and that included Anderson. That first game really set the tone for who was boss and the team put up its best record ever that year.

I'd love for a new coach to come in and straighten in out, but I'm not sure Mikey will actually let that happen. I always get the idea that Mike Brown will try to call all the shots and nothing will really change. After all, how does it take so many years to fire Paul Alexander?

I feel for Dalton a little because we do know that he can be a good QB as we've seen it in many games. But then we see stretches of games where you are left scratching your head.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-20-2018, 08:35 PM)Lucidus Wrote: The combination of Mr. Brown and coach Lewis has indeed rendered very unfortunate results as it pertains to what should be the ultimate goal of a Super Bowl title and the minimal goal of at least some playoff success.

The combination itself has proven to be a rather unfortunate pairing. On one hand, you have an owner / general manager who is widely referenced as among the league's worst, if not the actual worst. On the other hand, you have a head coach that seems to be incredibly out of his element when the spotlight burns the brightest, most often wilting under it's judgement glare.

The combination of these two gentlemen, and their individual shortcomings and deficiencies, would seem to radically reduce the probability of any possible success in postseason play, regardless of how much time is allotted to that effort.

Agree and it begs the question, is there a HC out there than can overcome Mike's GMship ?

It's quite obvious Marvin can't.

[BengalChris]

(11-20-2018, 06:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No offense, but you look silly when you just make stuff up and pretend it is true.

Through his first TEN years as a starter Ken Anderson had a worse winning percentage as a starter (.516) than Dalton (.580), had made the playoffs fewer times (2) and had not won a single postseason game.

According to the logic you keep trying to use it was IMPOSSIBLE for Ken Anderson to ever win a playoff game or take the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

Before 1981 Forrest Gregg had a losing record as head coach of the Bengals (24-33) and was coming off of back-to-back losing seasons

If you had been around in 1981 you would have been calling Paul Brown stupid for keeping those guys around when it had been proven that they could not win a playoff game.  Please stop acting like he agrees with your ridiculous argument.  He was not that dumb.

But Paul Brown saw the problem as the coach and went through several before Gregg. Paul Brown saw Anderson as the QB he wanted obviously because he had no problem at all getting rid of a player he didn't think could do the job.

So my point isn't really off the mark at all. We don't know what Paul Brown would think of Dalton, but I do believe he wouldn't have put up with Marvin for sure.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2018, 08:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: But Paul Brown saw the problem as the coach and went through several before Gregg. Paul Brown saw Anderson as the QB he wanted obviously because he had no problem at all getting rid of a player he didn't think could do the job.

So my point isn't really off the mark at all. We don't know what Paul Brown would think of Dalton, but I do believe he wouldn't have put up with Marvin for sure.

It's not off the mark....because Gregg only started coaching in Cincy in 1980, and was 6-10, taking over for the Homer Rice mistake. I don't see how he could have been 24-33 when he only coached here one season before going 12-4 and to the SB.

[Whatever]

(11-20-2018, 07:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Jets had the #1 defense.



The Jets had the #1 rushing offense in the league.  Shon Green averaged 5 yards per carry in 2009 and went on to have two 1000 rushing seasons.


Coles had only 21 catches over the last 8 games after Henry was injured and he never played another snap in the NFL after that Jets playoff game.

Here are Palmers numbers before and after Henry was injured

Before (8 games)...229 yd/g....14 td....83.5 rating
After   (9 games)….156 yd/g.... 8 td....73.5 rating






You can't think of anything better than playing the team with the #1 defense and the #1 running attack in the entire league?

The Bengals had the #7 rush defense that year.  With the Jets lack of outside receiving threats, it should have been simple to sell out to stop the run and force Sanchez to beat them with his arm, especially when you saw all their bread and butter run plays the week before.  The Jets had 20th ranked offense, despite being #1 in rushing.  That's because they were 31st in passing.  They were totally one dimensional.  The Jets instead ran it at us 41 times and they couldn't stop it and we turned it over twice in our own house.  

[Lucidus]

(11-20-2018, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike and Marvin have not won a championship so they have failed.

But when you win more games than most other teams and make the playoffs more than most other teams it is not an "epic: fail.

I think the first sentence would have sufficed. 

The NFL is a results driven league in which postseason success, and ultimately a World Championship, are the goal. Brown and Lewis have failed on both accounts, and to a rather alarming degree. 

That is not to say that coach Lewis is a failure as a head coach in the NFL. He has had some very nice regular seasons. He has qualified for the tournament seven times. In that regard, he has enjoyed a certain level of success that should be applauded. However, when applying the objective into the equation -- postseason validation by way of victories -- he indeed failed on an epic level. This can, and should, taint his overall accomplishments and reduce his stature among NFL head coaches to that of an enigma of mediocrity.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2018, 10:09 PM)Whatever Wrote: The Bengals had the #7 rush defense that year.  With the Jets lack of outside receiving threats, it should have been simple to sell out to stop the run and force Sanchez to beat them with his arm, especially when you saw all their bread and butter run plays the week before.  The Jets had 20th ranked offense, despite being #1 in rushing.  That's because they were 31st in passing.  They were totally one dimensional.  The Jets instead ran it at us 41 times and they couldn't stop it and we turned it over twice in our own house.  

Yep, I was there. Typical Mediocre Merv Meltdown.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-20-2018, 10:12 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I think the first sentence would have sufficed. 

The NFL is a results driven league in which postseason success, and ultimately a World Championship, are the goal. Brown and Lewis have failed on both accounts, and to a rather alarming degree. 

That is not to say that coach Lewis is a failure as a head coach in the NFL. He has had some very nice regular seasons. He has qualified for the tournament seven times. In that regard, he has enjoyed a certain level of success that should be applauded. However, when applying the objective into the equation -- postseason validation by way of victories -- he indeed failed on an epic level. This can, and should, taint his overall accomplishments and reduce his stature among NFL head coaches to that of an enigma of mediocrity.

I would say Mora 2.0.....but even Jim won playoff games and a championship in the USFL

[Whatever]

(11-20-2018, 07:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This makes no sense.  Teams that are poorly coached make the same mistakes all through games.

Generally speaking, even when the Bengals are on, they make enough mistakes to keep our opponents in the game.  For example, look at the first Baltimore game this year where we're killing them the whole first half, get overaggressive with a 3 TD lead right before the half, go 3 & out without burning any clock, and the Ravens drive for a TD to get back in the game.  They take penalties that short circuit drives.  They miss FG's.  They shank punts.  They blow coverages.  They drop balls. Etc, etc.

Seriously, when has anyone ever seen this team play a good, solid 60 minute game against a top opponent under Marvin?  Maybe the second Steelers game in '05?  That's why this team has been so bad in primetime, in the playoffs, and against playoff teams under Marvin.  You have to play 60 good minutes of football to win in the playoffs unless you get very lucky.  Under Marvin, you're lucky to get 30.  That's on the coaches to game plan and motivate the players.  We either come out hot, fail to keep up with the opponent's adjustments, and are clinging to the lead like Wile E. Coyote at the end or do nothing the first half, then decide maybe towards the end of the 3rd quarter we should play a little football.

You're saying he hasn't had the talent to be successful, but it almost never feels like Marvin and company outcoached the other coaches.  It never feels like we won because of Marvin.  It feels like we win in spite of Marvin.  I mean, in '05, we had the eventual SB champs on the ropes at halftime with our backup QB.  We all know the story.  The locker room imploded at halftime and we got stomped the entire 2nd half.  If we could've outplayed them for a half, we could've outplayed them for a game IF Marvin could have kept the team's emotions in check, but he couldn't.

He's had 2 franchise QB's.  He's had HoF caliber players.  He's had Pro Bowlers at every position except C and K.  Is talent REALLY the issue?  Every team in the league has holes.  What a good coach does is play to their strengths and camouflage their weaknesses.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 09:05 PM)Wyche Wrote: It's not off the mark....because Gregg only started coaching in Cincy in 1980, and was 6-10, taking over for the Homer Rice mistake. I don't see how he could have been 24-33 when he only coached here one season before going 12-4 and to the SB.

My mistake.  I included his record as head coach of the Browns.

Still he was 24-33 as a head coach before the season he went to the Super Bowl.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: Generally speaking, even when the Bengals are on, they make enough mistakes to keep our opponents in the game.  For example, look at the first Baltimore game this year where we're killing them the whole first half, get overaggressive with a 3 TD lead right before the half, go 3 & out without burning any clock, and the Ravens drive for a TD to get back in the game. 

Funny you use this as an example when the biggest criticism from the Marvin Haters is that he is not aggressive enough at the end of a half.  Then when he does exactly what they have been calling for and it does not work he is stupid for doing it.

This is the ay it usually works.  Fans criticize a coach for what ever he does that does not work.  I spent the entire '13 season reading about how stupid Marvin was to be playing Green-Ellis and taking touches away from Bernard, and how he was stupid to be conservative with a halftime  lead.  Then after the playoff loss everyone was screaming about how stupid Marvin was for not playing Green-Ellis and giving him touches instead of Bernard and how he should have been more conservative and ran the ball more with a halftime lead. 

Fans use 20/20 hindsight to criticize whatever a coach does even if it is exactly what they have been saying they want him to do.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote:  Is talent REALLY the issue? 

It is absolutely the issue during free agency when everyone squeals about Mike Brown killing this teams chances with his over conservative approach to free agency.


But it is not an issue at all when people want to criticize Marvin.


So you have to decide which side of your mouth you will talk out of based on who you want to criticize.

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote:  He's had Pro Bowlers at every position except C and K. 

He has never had a Pro Bowl OG.

And he did have a Pro Bowl Kicker (Graham '05)


In 15 seasons he has had 1 Pro Bowl DT, 1 DE, 1 safety, 1 LB, 1 RB, and 1 TE.  That really isn't a lot of talent spread over that long of a period.

[Bengalitis]

an NFL strike right about now would come in handy, we would have a good chance of making the playoffs and the biggest chance ever to revamp our entire team. ha!

[fredtoast]

(11-20-2018, 10:54 PM)Whatever Wrote: You're saying he hasn't had the talent to be successful, but it almost never feels like Marvin and company outcoached the other coaches.  It never feels like we won because of Marvin.  It feels like we win in spite of Marvin.  I mean, in '05, we had the eventual SB champs on the ropes at halftime with our backup QB.  We all know the story.  The locker room imploded at halftime and we got stomped the entire 2nd half.  If we could've outplayed them for a half, we could've outplayed them for a game IF Marvin could have kept the team's emotions in check, but he couldn't.

Emotions had nothing to do with Kitna being a turnover machine.

Emotions had nothing to do with us having the 28th ranked defense in the league and the Super Bowl champs abusing it.

[Whatever]

(11-21-2018, 11:13 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Funny you use this as an example when the biggest criticism from the Marvin Haters is that he is not aggressive enough at the end of a half.  Then when he does exactly what they have been calling for and it does not work he is stupid for doing it.

This is the ay it usually works.  Fans criticize a coach for what ever he does that does not work.  I spent the entire '13 season reading about how stupid Marvin was to be playing Green-Ellis and taking touches away from Bernard, and how he was stupid to be conservative with a halftime  lead.  Then after the playoff loss everyone was screaming about how stupid Marvin was for not playing Green-Ellis and giving him touches instead of Bernard and how he should have been more conservative and ran the ball more with a halftime lead. 

Fans use 20/20 hindsight to criticize whatever a coach does even if it is exactly what they have been saying they want him to do.

Fred, everyone knows there is a HUGE difference between being aggressive in that situation with a 3-7 point lead vs a 21 point lead.  How many times have we watched them run the clock out while we're tied or even down on the scoreboard?  The criticism isn't that he was aggressive.  The criticism is that he was aggressive with a huge lead, but gets ultra conservative when it's close or we're behind.

[depthchart]

(11-21-2018, 11:16 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It is absolutely the issue during free agency when everyone squeals about Mike Brown killing this teams chances with his over conservative approach to free agency.


But it is not an issue at all when people want to criticize Marvin.


So you have to decide which side of your mouth you will talk out of based on who you want to criticize.

I don't think Talent has been the issue in ALL of Marvin's seasons here with the Bengals.

He has had his share of teams that have had enough talent to make some noise with.

In fairness, two of them were derailed by QB injuries.

It would be nice to have a few more higher level Free Agents added more often, however, Free Agency can be a crapshoot.

In 2018, Left Tackle Nate Solder was all the rage & ended up getting Big Money only to be not playing so well. Now the Giants are committed financially to him. RB Jerrick McKinnon signed by the 49ers then hurt & out for the season.

Guard Andrew Norwell would have been nice but he went for a 5 year $66,000,000 contract with $30,000,000 guaranteed.

There are always guys that would have helped in that just below higher tier of guys, a Jimmy Graham at TE, Sammy Watkins & Allen Robinson at WR etc. Likely only financial room to get one maybe two of these type of guys.

The Bengals tend to bring back one of their own Free Agents (Tyler Eifert) for 2018  and sign a few after the early days of Free Agency larger dollar guys get signed. (Preston Brown for 2018).

With what the Bengals spend retaining their own players (Dunlap/Geno), maybe they have room to add a guy just below the high tier of free Agents yet above the lower tier they typically draw from. Then hope he stays healthy.

I'd like the Bengals to make a bigger splash in Free Agency, however, they put more financial resources into signing players (mainly retaining their own) than over half of the League.

Teams like the Rams have made Big splashes in Free Agency but they have their QB on a rookie contract.

Not so sure dabbling a little more in Free Agency is the Magic Bullet her for Marvin.