Duke

[Whatever]

(11-21-2018, 08:19 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: To me, Jefferson was just a pick thrown away.  Sure, he's got all those "wow" physical traits, but what he lacks is football instinct.  You think that can be taught, especially with our LB coaches?  I'm pretty sure that Jefferson would have likely been there in the 5th round.  We could have got a decent Guard, Tackle, or even TE with that 3rd round pick.  I'm not so keen on that Walton selection either, but he really does have time to develop.

But, as for Duke Tobin?  Yeah, he's been slipping, or so it would seem.  This team needs a REAL GM in charge of football operations.  Just turn it over, tell him "Here's the salary cap, do what you must.".  That doesn't mean that Katie can't still be the chief contract negotiator, or any of the other current administrative staff for the team can't keep their current jobs, just turn the football part over to an actual GM.

He certainly wasn't a good fit for Austin's scheme because he played better in an aggressive defensive scheme rather than a passive read and react scheme in college.  He's slow to read and react.  There can a lot of reasons for that.  He may not trust what he sees and second guesses himself.  He may not recognize what's going on.  He may not push himself to make quick reads because his athletic ability compensated for it in college.  Those may get better with experience.  They won't get better riding the pine.

I understand why they took him, because he can match up with RB's and TE's in coverage and we just don't have LB's that can do that.  I don't think he'd be around much longer because he was a productive player that showed coverage and blitzing ability.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-21-2018, 09:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: He certainly wasn't a good fit for Austin's scheme because he played better in an aggressive defensive scheme rather than a passive read and react scheme in college.  He's slow to read and react.  There can a lot of reasons for that.  He may not trust what he sees and second guesses himself.  He may not recognize what's going on.  He may not push himself to make quick reads because his athletic ability compensated for it in college.  Those may get better with experience.  They won't get better riding the pine.

I understand why they took him, because he can match up with RB's and TE's in coverage and we just don't have LB's that can do that.  I don't think he'd be around much longer because he was a productive player that showed coverage and blitzing ability.

Yes, and Al Davis used to draft the fastest players he could, regardless of football IQ, playing ability, or anything, just speed.  Where did that get the Raiders?

My point is, sure speed is important to a football player.  Let me emphasize FOOTBALL player, meaning he's also got to have natural instincts and football smarts in order for those physical skills to mean a damn thing..

[jj22]

(11-21-2018, 07:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Eifert in '13 and I believe Marvin Jones ('12) went to a Pro Bowl with the Lions.

I legit forgot about Eifert.

[BengalFanInNJ]

(11-21-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't play a guy who is not ready to contribute.  That is silly.  Give him a year to learn then see how he does.

Sometimes the best teacher is actual real live football during a real game. He should be getting some more playing time because what the Bengals are getting from their linebacking corps right now is very little. Jefferson being out their won't make this defense much worse and it's not like they have to keep him out there for the whole game anyway. 

[Whatever]

(11-21-2018, 09:52 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yes, and Al Davis used to draft the fastest players he could, regardless of football IQ, playing ability, or anything, just speed.  Where did that get the Raiders?

My point is, sure speed is important to a football player.  Let me emphasize FOOTBALL player, meaning he's also got to have natural instincts and football smarts in order for those physical skills to mean a damn thing..

Jefferson was a 2nd team All American last year.  He's more than just a guy with a LB frame that can run fast.

PJ Dawson was supposed to have great football instincts and IQ coming out of college, and he didn't pan out.  Burfict, Brown, and Vigil are in that same mold.  We've been focused more on football IQ than athletic talent at LB for quite awhile, and what we've wound up with is a slow, unathletic LB corps that can't cover RB's and TE's and gets exploited by mobile QB's.  It's tough to find LB's that are freak athletes and have great instincts and football smarts outside of round 1.  

There's tons of freak athletes that don't pan out because they don't get the mental part of the game.  There's tons of guys with great football IQ's that just don't have the physical traits necessary to cut it in the NFL.   Unless you're going to throw 1st round picks and top FA dollars at the position, you need to get some plus athletes that can compensate for their lack of instincts with their athletic ability and some guys with high enough football IQ's to compensate for being lesser athletes.

[BengalsRocker]

(11-22-2018, 01:42 AM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Sometimes the best teacher is actual real live football during a real game. He should be getting some more playing time because what the Bengals are getting from their linebacking corps right now is very little. Jefferson being out their won't make this defense much worse and it's not like they have to keep him out there for the whole game anyway. 

Honestly they should suit him up to play in garbage time at the very least.

It's still a better tool than letting him rot and not have NFL speed experience.

[McC]

(11-22-2018, 01:42 AM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Sometimes the best teacher is actual real live football during a real game. He should be getting some more playing time because what the Bengals are getting from their linebacking corps right now is very little. Jefferson being out their won't make this defense much worse and it's not like they have to keep him out there for the whole game anyway. 

Oh, no.  Replace somebody on our 32nd ranked defense?  You radical you.

Honestly, what are they protecting by not playing him?

[McC]

(11-21-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't play a guy who is not ready to contribute.  That is silly.  Give him a year to learn then see how he does.

Well, other than terrible play, what does Nickerson contribute?  Hell, for that matter, what has Burfict contributed?  Or Vinnie
Rey?

[SunsetBengal]

(11-22-2018, 02:00 AM)Whatever Wrote: Jefferson was a 2nd team All American last year.  He's more than just a guy with a LB frame that can run fast.

PJ Dawson was supposed to have great football instincts and IQ coming out of college, and he didn't pan out.  Burfict, Brown, and Vigil are in that same mold.  We've been focused more on football IQ than athletic talent at LB for quite awhile, and what we've wound up with is a slow, unathletic LB corps that can't cover RB's and TE's and gets exploited by mobile QB's.  It's tough to find LB's that are freak athletes and have great instincts and football smarts outside of round 1.  

There's tons of freak athletes that don't pan out because they don't get the mental part of the game.  There's tons of guys with great football IQ's that just don't have the physical traits necessary to cut it in the NFL.   Unless you're going to throw 1st round picks and top FA dollars at the position, you need to get some plus athletes that can compensate for their lack of instincts with their athletic ability and some guys with high enough football IQ's to compensate for being lesser athletes.

Good points.  We'll never know if his is learning anything, nor will he have the opportunity to learn and grow, simply by sitting on the bench.  Hell, if nothing else, he would provide a speedy set of fresh legs out there, and maybe give the defense a fresh shot of enthusiasm that it could really use.

[Whatever]

(11-21-2018, 09:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And since 2011 we have lost Pro Bowlers Jermain Gresham, Andrew Whitworth, Adam Jones, and Reggie Nelson, plus key starters Marvin Jones, Kevin Zeitler, Andre smith, Domata Peko, Leon Hall, and Terrance Newman.

We have only added one free agent (Brown) and one trade (Glenn) but yet we are still a .500 team in the middle of a playoff chase.

Just shows how amazing our coaching is that we can suffer all these high quality losses, struggle in the draft, add no real quality free agents, and still be doing better than most of the teams in the league.

Classic post, Fred.  Name all the FA losses since 2011 and compare them to one year's worth of FA.

Seriously, you excuse make for Marvin like a battered housewife does for her abusive husband.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-21-2018, 09:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And since 2011 we have lost Pro Bowlers Jermain Gresham, Andrew Whitworth, Adam Jones, and Reggie Nelson, plus key starters Marvin Jones, Kevin Zeitler, Andre smith, Domata Peko, Leon Hall, and Terrance Newman.

We have only added one free agent (Brown) and one trade (Glenn) but yet we are still a .500 team in the middle of a playoff chase.

Just shows how amazing our coaching is that we can suffer all these high quality losses, struggle in the draft, add no real quality free agents, and still be doing better than most of the teams in the league.

Lol nice try Fred. What it shows is that Dalton, Green, Atkins, Dunlap (all drafted in 2010-2011) have managed to make this team halfway competitive despite the declining quality of players around them. And in the end, this team isn't going anywhere, so this won't be a feather you can attempt to cram in Marv's cap. 

The last 3 years (including this one) haven't been good by any objective person's standards anyway. Even this year we're .500 and fading. Thank goodness Cleveland and Denver are next on the slate. Even if this team slides into the playoffs, I'm willing to sig bet you that we'll swiftly lose and you'll be on here spouting off reasons why 0-8 is somehow okay. Care to take me up on that?

[McC]

(11-23-2018, 02:35 PM)Whatever Wrote: Classic post, Fred.  Name all the FA losses since 2011 and compare them to one year's worth of FA.

Seriously, you excuse make for Marvin like a battered housewife does for her abusive husband.

It's not so much making excuses for Marvin as it is arguing against the general consensus and going to great lengths to irritate people.  There is  name for that, as we all know.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-23-2018, 05:55 PM)McC Wrote: It's not so much making excuses for Marvin as it is arguing against the general consensus and going to great lengths to irritate people.  There is  name for that, as we all know.

That is why it is best to put him on on ignore....

[Whatever]

(11-23-2018, 05:55 PM)McC Wrote: It's not so much making excuses for Marvin as it is arguing against the general consensus and going to great lengths to irritate people.  There is  name for that, as we all know.

(11-23-2018, 07:05 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: That is why it is best to put him on on ignore....

I actually find him entertaining.  It's funny to me to watch himself paint himself into corner after corner trying to support arguments that defy all logic.  That and watching him regurgitate the same debunked points in thread after thread is good for a chuckle.

[*wildcats forever*]

Back on topic, please.

[BengalsBong]

(11-21-2018, 06:00 PM)motoarch Wrote: Sanu gets way more credit than he deserves.  He wasn’t that good and jones was hardly on the field.  I feel like jones was getting by on what could have been verse what was

I know this isn’t really to your over all point but I get so sick of hearing about what a loss they were.  Sanu was easily replaced with lafell and jones wasn’t worth the money he wanted.  Tobin didn’t let him get away, he want r1 money and wasn’t signing with us for anything less.

Marvin Jones was missing game starts because Marvin Lewis was giving game starts to Sanu over Jones which was really stupid considering Jones is a much better outside WR then Sanu. If we could of paid Jones then we should have cause he has still not been replaced and he was productive when the coach wasn't playing guys with less talent over him. Letting him go has set us back 3 years and counting.

[BengalsBong]

(11-21-2018, 06:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You can't play a guy who is not ready to contribute.  That is silly.  Give him a year to learn then see how he does.

Once we are out of the playoff picture or the game is a blowout loss the young guys that need reps should play. Nickerson is just trash he should not even be on the team.

[motoarch]

(11-24-2018, 09:32 AM)BengalsBong Wrote: Marvin Jones was missing game starts because Marvin Lewis was giving game starts to Sanu over Jones which was really stupid considering Jones is a much better outside WR then Sanu. If we could of paid Jones then we should have cause he has still not been replaced and he was productive when the coach wasn't playing guys with less talent over him. Letting him go has set us back 3 years and counting.

He missed starts cause he was injured, a lot.

And we couldn’t afford him. Did you remember what he wanted? He want R1 money and to this day hasn’t shown he’s worth what he was asking for. I’m not saying he wasn’t a talent, I’m saying you don’t pay a guy ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent else where. Like for example keeping wit and Zietler. Which of course they didn’t do.

[CornerBlitz]

Before we start hating on Duke, i think the talent is here. This season the offense was clicking on all cylinders before Eifert and AJ went out. I don't think there is any question that on paper, our defense was considered highly talented. It has been mostly poor coaching and inconsistent QB play that in my opinion has lead to these inferior seasons.

I don't have an issue with Duke and please do not bash him for not signing big time FA. We all know that the finger should be pointed to MB for that.

[Shake n Blake]

(11-24-2018, 01:34 PM)CornerBlitz Wrote: Before we start hating on Duke, i think the talent is here.  This season the offense was clicking on all cylinders before Eifert and AJ went out.  I don't think there is any question that on paper, our defense was considered highly talented. It has been mostly poor coaching and inconsistent QB play that in my opinion has lead to these inferior seasons.  

I don't have an issue with Duke and please do not bash him for not signing big time FA. We all know that the finger should be pointed to MB for that.

It's a cluster of all of the above (not interested in rehashing the Dalton debate for the umpteenth time with you, but we know where we stand on that). If you think Duke is the lead dog as far as drafting, he most definitely should be on the shit list. The drafts have not been good, corner. Really don't see how that's debatable. 1 pro-bowler in the last 7 drafts?