If GM holding Marvin back, then why has Marvin never left to a better Opportunity/GM?

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:03 PM)depthchart Wrote: Do you thus assume that Marvin entered every game that he LOST with a LESSER game day Roster than the Head Coach that was opposing him that day ?

Does Mike Brown wear a Head Set during games and mess up Marvin's brilliant Coaching during these games where Marvin had the better game day Roster than the other Head Coach he opposed had yet Marvin LOST ?

If I answer these questions you have to answer mine.  Don't you think that is fair.


1.  No, I don't think he has never lost with more talent, but he has never had the best roster in the league either.  And when he does have a talented roster it is because he and his staff have had to bust their asses coaching up lesser players.  Mike Brown has never given him any top level free agent talent like all other coaches get from time to time so it has all been on Marvin to build those rosters.

2.  No, Mike Brown does not cause Marvin to lose when Marvin had more talent.  The question is "how often does that happen?"

Now answer my question

(11-26-2018, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just curious, but why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Browns money for better free agents to win more games?

[THE PISTONS]

The best case anyone can come up with for keeping him is essentially, 'Hey we were 90's level terrible before him. We atleast make the playoffs occasionally now whether we win or not. I'll take mediocre over bad!'

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 02:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If I answer these questions you have to answer mine.  Don't you think that is fair.


1.  No, I don't think he has never lost with more talent, but he has never had the best roster in the league either.  And when he does have a talented roster it is because he and his staff have had to bust their asses coaching up lesser players.  Mike Brown has never given him any top level free agent talent like all other coaches get from time to time so it has all been on Marvin to build those rosters.

2.  No, Mike Brown does not cause Marvin to lose when Marvin had more talent.  The question is "how often does that happen?"

Now answer my question

I think 1 is a valid point. Tom Coughlin wanted a GM and to increase the scouting department to come here and questioned whether he could win here if that didn't happen.

That said, we were 8-0 at home 1 year and lost to San Diego who backed into the playoffs at home. You couldn't have a weaker playoff team for us to beat...and we lost.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your 1st bolded is the elephant in the room. There were a couple seasons where we had a Top 5 NFL roster and didn't win a playoff game. That's on the coaches there. Point blank.

First of all I would dispute that we ever had a roster that was top 5 in talent.

Second of all you can't just say the coaches are to blame for everything.  In 2013 you honestly think that Marvin was to blame for Dalton having 2 ints and 2 fumbles in the playoff game against the Chargers at home when just a few weeks earlier he only had one interception on the road against the exact same team.  The Chargers were 5-6 and in desperation mode when we beat them in the regular season.  If Mike McCoy could just "outcoach" Marvin why didn't he do it during the regular season when his team was in a "must win" situation?

[depthchart]

(11-26-2018, 02:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your 1st bolded is the elephant in the room. There were a couple seasons where we had a Top 5 NFL roster and didn't win a playoff game. That's on the coaches there. Point blank.

I even give Marvin credit for shaping those Solid Rosters by influencing Mike.

Marvin then must have responsibility when Rosters are not so good & this is what Fred cannot tolerate because it shifts a lot of Mike's responsibility for outcomes to Marvin.

The 1990's Mike GM either improved on his own or was "influenced" by Marvin into being a better GM during Marvin's era.

No matter how one slices it, Marvin has not been Roster deficient in all of his losses when compared to the other Head Coach he opposes.

The Playoff team Rosters were not "worst in the NFL" those years thus the Bengal GM was not the "worst in the NFL" those years.

Marvin helped improve the GM outcomes but by doing so LOSES the hiding place behind Mike Brown of it all being Mike's fault.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:22 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The best case anyone can come up with for keeping him is essentially, 'Hey we were 90's level terrible before him. We atleast make the playoffs occasionally now whether we win or not. I'll take mediocre over bad!'

No one, not even me, has a case to keep him.

I still defend him against the most outrageous claims against him.  He is not as bad as many people here claim.  And I think it is hilarious the way some people flip/flop their arguments depending on what happens each week just to try and blame everything on Marvin, But after last season even I thought he should have been let go.  Even if he is not a bad coach he has had his chance here.  

[Hoofhearted]

(11-26-2018, 02:15 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Your 1st bolded is the elephant in the room. There were a couple seasons where we had a Top 5 NFL roster and didn't win a playoff game. That's on the coaches there. Point blank.

Or why he’s just recently getting rid of PA? Why did he hire Austin, promote Lazor, and bring in hue? It’s not even the lack of FA signings it’s also been lousy coaches

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 02:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one, not even me, has a case to keep him.

I still defend him against the most outrageous claims against him.  He is not as bad as many people here claim.  And I think it is hilarious the way some people flip/flop their arguments depending on what happens each week just to try and blame everything on Marvin, But after last season even I thought he should have been let go.  Even if he is not a bad coach he has had his chance here.  

That's where I'm at on the issue too Fred.

If you look objectively at the roster this year...it's not that good. People see that we have a few stars and think it is, but in the NFL you need stars, solid players, and average players with minimum bad starters.

We have a lot of bad starters sprinkled throughout the team.

There are some years where I felt we had a Top 5 roster and didn't get the job done. Maybe 1 or 2 years.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 02:30 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Or why he’s just recently getting rid of PA? Why did he hire Austin, promote Lazor, and bring in hue? It’s not even the lack of FA signings it’s also been lousy coaches

I'm fairly sure Paul Alexander isn't on Marvin. I think that's more on MB.

BUT, Pollack hasn't built anything great with the line either...and he was gifted Glenn and Price. He's severely underwhelmed too.

[Hoofhearted]

(11-26-2018, 02:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm fairly sure Paul Alexander isn't on Marvin. I think that's more on MB.

BUT, Pollack hasn't built anything great with the line either...and he was gifted Glenn and Price. He's severely underwhelmed too.

But he didn’t want or have the nerve to change it? Again, that’s on Marv. As much as you’d like to paint a lot of it on MB, ML has fully accepted this mantra which means he’s just as bad or worse for enabling it. Don’t like it? Change it. Can’t change it? Leave. Simple.

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:27 PM)depthchart Wrote: The Playoff team Rosters were not "worst in the NFL" those years thus the Bengal GM was not the "worst in the NFL" those years.

Wrong.  The front office was still the worst in the NFL.  The only reason the roster was not the worst was because Marvin and his staff were good enough to make lemonade out of lemons.  Terrance Newman was a bust when we signed him.  Wallace Gilberry and Dhani Jones were signed off the street after being released. Reggie Nelson was such a bust we got him for nothing and turned him into a Pro Bowler.  Burfict was undrafted and we made him a Pro Bowler.  Andrew Hawkins was in the CFL and he was our #2 WR on a playoff team.  Manny Lawson and Thomas Howard were busts until we made them the starting LBs on one of the best defenses in the league.  Adam Jones had been out of the league for years until he came here and became a star.  Cedric Benson was a bust with the Bears.  Kyle Cook was an undrafted free agent released by another team.  Nate Clements was over the hill. 

I have answered your question, so why don't you answer mine.

(11-26-2018, 01:50 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just curious, but why exactly do you think Marvin wants to lose and look bad instead of spend Mike Browns money for better free agents to win more games?

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 02:42 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: But he didn’t want or have the nerve to change it? Again, that’s on Marv. As much as you’d like to paint a lot of it on MB, ML has fully accepted this mantra which means he’s just as bad or worse for enabling it. Don’t like it? Change it. Can’t change it? Leave. Simple.

Marvin was not stupid.  He knew how things worked when he took the job.  It would have been disingenuous for him to leave because of lack of support from the front office when he knew what he was going to get all along.

And if he left the haters would have given him the Kevin Durant treatment and claimed he "quit on his players" and "took the easy way out".  Marvin took on the challenge, and he is not a quitter.

[sandwedge]

(11-26-2018, 02:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I'm fairly sure Paul Alexander isn't on Marvin. I think that's more on MB.

BUT, Pollack hasn't built anything great with the line either...and he was gifted Glenn and Price. He's severely underwhelmed too.

I'm going to reserve judgement on Pollack. He was handed a group that wasn't very good to begin with. Glenn isn't the player we all thought he would be, Boling is very overrated by fans, Price is a rookie that missed alot of playing time, Redmond, Hopkins and Hart enough said....

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(11-26-2018, 02:46 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I'm going to reserve judgement on Pollack. He was handed a group that wasn't very good to begin with. Glenn isn't the player we all thought he would be, Boling is very overrated by fans, Price is a rookie that missed alot of playing time, Redmond, Hopkins and Hart enough said....

For sure, Pollack was given little to work with. 

[Bengalholic]

(11-24-2018, 10:55 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Marvin was not stupid.  He knew exactly what he was signing up for when he agreed to be the Bengals' coach.  It would be disingenuous to leave and claim it was because he was not getting what he wanted from the front office when he knew exactly what to expect from the very beginning.

So, you do agree with the point I made last week...even though you argued against it then?  

(11-19-2018, 06:43 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Marvin knew who he was choosing to work for in 2003. He continued to know exactly who he was working for each time he signed an extension and decided to keep working for him. Once he decided to work for Mike, and continue working for Mike, he has to take his fair share of blame for what happens under his watch and his direction. 

[fredtoast]

(11-26-2018, 03:07 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, you do agree with the point I made last week...even though you argued against it then?  

Knowing your boss sucks does not mean you suck at your job.

The fact that Mike Brown sucks does not mean every coach and player under him sucks.  Is every Bengal player who ever signed a contract extension to stay here just as bad as Mike Brown?

[fortyyearfan]

(11-23-2018, 02:53 PM)depthchart Wrote: So he must then think that the situation here is not so bad that he can't ultimately win a Championship.

Would he then feel that his potential Greatness as a Head Coach can overcome the GM that is "holding him back" -OR- that he has enough influence over his GM that he can still influence things to a Championship level ?

marvin does not have that IT factor to win a championship.He just does not realize that or maybe he has and loves those paychecks.Would you not stay somewhere to make that kind of bucks?? I would,no matter what the city or the fans think.He still gets those huge paydays every week.Think about all the big big bucks all these people are making at our expense and how all you long suffering fans get nothing but heartaches,and losing all your hard earned money but the news media propping up this losing organization each and every year.After all,they are making big money by supporting this mess and who is the loser every year??? Why its the long suffering fans. fifty years folks,please think about that when you go to renew your season tickets,unless some of you just like to suffer. :paul:

[Bengalsrob]

Such a simple question with such complex answers. The only answer that makes sense is actually a question...where else can you get paid millions of dollars for sucking at your job? Part B would be that coaching a high school team in Pennsylvania doesn't pay anywhere near that much money. Fred may be right about Brown being the worst owner...anybody else including Jerry Jones would have fired multiple coaches after yesterday's debacle,irregardless of whether or not that would "make the situation better".

[Bengalholic]

(11-26-2018, 03:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Knowing your boss sucks does not mean you suck at your job.

The fact that Mike Brown sucks does not mean every coach and player under him sucks.  Is every Bengal player who ever signed a contract extension to stay here just as bad as Mike Brown?

As you said - "It would be disingenuous to leave and claim it was because he was not getting what he wanted from the front office when he knew exactly what to expect from the very beginning."

[Benton]

(11-26-2018, 03:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Knowing your boss sucks does not mean you suck at your job.

The fact that Mike Brown sucks does not mean every coach and player under him sucks.  Is every Bengal player who ever signed a contract extension to stay here just as bad as Mike Brown?

Likewise, Mike Brown's sucking doesn't mean every coach and player doesn't suck.

I get the Mike Brown hate. And I get the "God the 90s were horrible" defense of Marvin. And I get that not every player is going to be a HoF.

But at some point you have to hold people accountable for the results. It's the difference in responsibility and accountability. Marvin isn't accountable for Mike. He has no control over what the owner wants to do. But he is responsible for what Mike does. And he's accountable for his own poor coaching and lack of success.

Marvin should've been fired years ago. Hue should not have been brought back. Fans shouldn't have to put up with an acceptance of failure.