Bengals Cap Strategy

[THE PISTONS]

The Bengals PR kind of sold us (Model Model) on the strategy that they don't overspend on external free agents allowing them to essentially be competitive every year because they wouldn't be massively over the cap.

They also value Compensatory Picks like they are gold. (In reality, most of our compensatory picks turn out to be special teamers.)

It also gets talked about how the Steelers and Ravens will be in a cap hell where they have to significantly get rid of players. Meanwhile, the Steelers seem to extend guys like Pouncey, DeCastro, Brown, Roethlisberger, and had enough money to franchise tag Bell.

We've lost some really good Pro's over the years in Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Andre Smith, Joseph, Justin Smith, and several more...as re-signing them could have hindered our ability to have cap space into the future.

Meanwhile, we seem to have tens of millions of cap space each year. We had enough to absorb Cordy Glenn's contract this past offseason. We are projected to have a lot this offseason. ie It looks to me like we could have retained Zeitler or Whitworth...and maybe both.

Then, our model is also built on being able to draft well and replace talent. We have a small scouting staff though. Are our scouts 10 times as smart as those of the Patriots?

What are your thoughts on our cap strategy?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-26-2018, 11:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals PR kind of sold us (Model Model) on the strategy that they don't overspend on external free agents allowing them to essentially be competitive every year because they wouldn't be massively over the cap.

They also value Compensatory Picks like they are gold. (In reality, most of our compensatory picks turn out to be special teamers.)

It also gets talked about how the Steelers and Ravens will be in a cap hell where they have to significantly get rid of players. Meanwhile, the Steelers seem to extend guys like Pouncey, DeCastro, Brown, Roethlisberger, and had enough money to franchise tag Bell.

We've lost some really good Pro's over the years in Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Andre Smith, Joseph, Justin Smith, and several more...as re-signing them could have hindered our ability to have cap space into the future.

Meanwhile, we seem to have tens of millions of cap space each year. We had enough to absorb Cordy Glenn's contract this past offseason. We are projected to have a lot this offseason. ie It looks to me like we could have retained Zeitler or Whitworth...and maybe both.

Then, our model is also built on being able to draft well and replace talent. We have a small scouting staff though. Are our scouts 10 times as smart as those of the Patriots?

What are your thoughts on our cap strategy?

My thoughts are that Zeitler owned our d line yesterday.....lol.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

The PR sold you on that? Or did you convince yourself this model was going to work?

[XenoMorph]

(11-26-2018, 11:56 AM)Wyche Wrote: My thoughts are that Zeitler owned our d line yesterday.....lol.

the DL is too well feed they are not hungry anymore...  And MJ looks worse every game

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 11:58 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: The PR sold you on that? Or did you convince yourself this model was going to work?

I've been one of the most vocal critics of the model.

The compensatory pick model is the worst part of it IMO.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 11:56 AM)Wyche Wrote: My thoughts are that Zeitler owned our d line yesterday.....lol.

But, I thought Zeitler was underperforming as a Brown? And way overpaid? 

[BenZoo2]

Here’s the ebenezer way in a nutshell. There is a minimum salary cap in the Nfl. I will spend money to retain my good players because if I don’t, fans won’t come at all. I will pay average money to the rest of my roster. I will not overspend in free agency, I will merely bring in a couple middling free agents who haven’t found a deal that I can bring in cheap. I will hoard draft picks to keep my payroll lower so I can pocket additional cap money


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*ochocincos*]

(11-26-2018, 11:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals PR kind of sold us (Model Model) on the strategy that they don't overspend on external free agents allowing them to essentially be competitive every year because they wouldn't be massively over the cap.

They also value Compensatory Picks like they are gold. (In reality, most of our compensatory picks turn out to be special teamers.)

It also gets talked about how the Steelers and Ravens will be in a cap hell where they have to significantly get rid of players. Meanwhile, the Steelers seem to extend guys like Pouncey, DeCastro, Brown, Roethlisberger, and had enough money to franchise tag Bell.

We've lost some really good Pro's over the years in Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Andre Smith, Joseph, Justin Smith, and several more...as re-signing them could have hindered our ability to have cap space into the future.

Meanwhile, we seem to have tens of millions of cap space each year. We had enough to absorb Cordy Glenn's contract this past offseason. We are projected to have a lot this offseason. ie It looks to me like we could have retained Zeitler or Whitworth...and maybe both.

Then, our model is also built on being able to draft well and replace talent. We have a small scouting staff though. Are our scouts 10 times as smart as those of the Patriots?

What are your thoughts on our cap strategy?

I think the strategy for comp picks is stupid. The lower the picks, the less likely they pan out to become starters let alone above average starters.
If they continue with this strategy, they need to try to trade multiple Day 3 picks back up into Days 1 and 2 in order to try to find more starter-level players. Sure, you may find a Marvin Jones on Day 3 but for every Marvin Jones you find, you're also more likely to get a Mario Alford. Give me 4-5 picks in Days 1 and 2 over 10+ picks where 7+ of them are on Day 3.

As for the cap situation, the excuse of rolling over $10+ mill a year can only be justified if there's a plan to go all-in at some point. So far, we've seen just a continuation of rollover for no other than reason than "just because."

I also think the type of players the Bengals pursue is a bad method. They look to sign multiple lower-tier players rather than sign 1-2 upper-tier and fill those backup spots with cheap draft picks and/or sub-$1 mill a year veterans. 

Last, if you are going to say you focus on the drafting and developing "homegrown" talent, you need coaches and a FO who are elite at evaluating and developing talent (mainly developing). They don't seem to be doing well at this for the past few years at least and it's caused a (big) decline in the outcome of the past few seasons as good veterans have left.

[J24]

They won't go a penny over for a star but they will over spend on a backup for no reason. Why in 2016 did we sign Pacman and V Rey? Why did we sign Minter in 17 and Brown this past year for 5 million each when we know they won't be three down players?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(11-26-2018, 12:01 PM)XenoMorph Wrote: the DL is too well feed they are not hungry anymore...  And MJ looks worse every game

Yeah, they're not playing worth a damn, but Lap made an interesting observation during the 1st half yesterday.....the interior line of the Browns has played something like 26 or so games in a row together.  That kind of continuity up the middle cannot be understated....they're playing pretty good as well.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 12:47 PM)Wyche Wrote: Yeah, they're not playing worth a damn, but Lap made an interesting observation during the 1st half yesterday.....the interior line of the Browns has played something like 26 or so games in a row together.  That kind of continuity up the middle cannot be understated....they're playing pretty good as well.

Well they actually spend money on their offensive line.

I have to say, Pollack is underwhelming. Really underwhelming.

[Whatever]

(11-26-2018, 11:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The Bengals PR kind of sold us (Model Model) on the strategy that they don't overspend on external free agents allowing them to essentially be competitive every year because they wouldn't be massively over the cap.

They also value Compensatory Picks like they are gold. (In reality, most of our compensatory picks turn out to be special teamers.)

It also gets talked about how the Steelers and Ravens will be in a cap hell where they have to significantly get rid of players. Meanwhile, the Steelers seem to extend guys like Pouncey, DeCastro, Brown, Roethlisberger, and had enough money to franchise tag Bell.

We've lost some really good Pro's over the years in Whitworth, Zeitler, Jones, Sanu, Nelson, Andre Smith, Joseph, Justin Smith, and several more...as re-signing them could have hindered our ability to have cap space into the future.

Meanwhile, we seem to have tens of millions of cap space each year. We had enough to absorb Cordy Glenn's contract this past offseason. We are projected to have a lot this offseason. ie It looks to me like we could have retained Zeitler or Whitworth...and maybe both.

Then, our model is also built on being able to draft well and replace talent. We have a small scouting staff though. Are our scouts 10 times as smart as those of the Patriots?

What are your thoughts on our cap strategy?

In fairness, the Steelers have lost a lot of quality starters to FA in that same timeframe.  I mean, Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, Emmanuel Sanders, Martavious Bryant, Alan Faneca, Kelvin Beachum, Ryan Clark, Ziggy Hood, etc, etc.  They also strong armed Polamalu into retirement to get desperately needed cap relief.

The Bengals model is based on the Steelers model.  The Steelers have been more aggressive in retaining talent in recent years because Ben's window is closing.  The basic idea is that by maintaining a steady talent level that is capable of making and winning in the playoffs, you can be in the discussion on a yearly basis and every so often win a SB as opposed to pushing all in, potentially missing your shot due to any number of reasons, then be stuck in a rebuild.

For either model to work, you have to have a HC that can get the most out of his team in key regular season and playoff games.  If you don't have that, and we don't, you're not winning a championship either way.  As badly as this team underperforms come playoff time, a couple of big splash FA's are not netting us a title.  Maybe we have one playoff win to show for it.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 08:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: In fairness, the Steelers have lost a lot of quality starters to FA in that same timeframe.  I mean, Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, Emmanuel Sanders, Martavious Bryant, Alan Faneca, Kelvin Beachum, Ryan Clark, Ziggy Hood, etc, etc.  They also strong armed Polamalu into retirement to get desperately needed cap relief.

The Bengals model is based on the Steelers model.  The Steelers have been more aggressive in retaining talent in recent years because Ben's window is closing.  The basic idea is that by maintaining a steady talent level that is capable of making and winning in the playoffs, you can be in the discussion on a yearly basis and every so often win a SB as opposed to pushing all in, potentially missing your shot due to any number of reasons, then be stuck in a rebuild.

For either model to work, you have to have a HC that can get the most out of his team in key regular season and playoff games.  If you don't have that, and we don't, you're not winning a championship either way.  As badly as this team underperforms come playoff time, a couple of big splash FA's are not netting us a title.  Maybe we have one playoff win to show for it.

They dumped Martavis Bryant, but yes teams lose free agents.

You also have to draft well. The Steelers draft way better than us. And they have way more of a scouting department and a GM.

[SunsetBengal]

(11-26-2018, 12:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well they actually spend money on their offensive line.

I have to say, Pollack is underwhelming. Really underwhelming.

Hmm, I'm going to have hold judgement on Pollack until next year.  This year, he was hamstrung with having to keep Fisher and Ogbuehi on hand, for the final year of their rookie deals.  He should get some solid turnover this year, let's just wait and see what he does with it, before we call him a washout.

I do strongly agree with you on the idea that holding those comp picks in such a high regard is severely overvalued.  As you pointed out, I'd rather have 5 solid guys drafted, than 10 dudes with little chance of sticking past a rookie deal.  Heck, just look at the Saints in the '16 draft.  They made moves and gave up picks, in order to get the 4 guys that they wanted.  Sheldon Rankins and Michael Thomas are now household names, and Vonn Bell and David Onyemate are both first off the bench with their respective units.

It makes no sense to draft lesser talented players with low ceilings, and take 2-4 years to develop them into "decent backups" or "emergency starters".  Just draft quality players, coach them to play ASAP, and let them develop on the field.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 09:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm going to have hold judgement on Pollack until next year.  This year, he was hamstrung with having to keep Fisher and Ogbuehi on hand, for the final year of their rookie deals.  He should get some solid turnover this year, let's just wait and see what he does with it, before we call him a washout.

I do strongly agree with you on the idea that holding those comp picks in such a high regard is severely overvalued.  As you pointed out, I'd rather have 5 solid guys drafted, than 10 dudes with little chance of sticking past a rookie deal.  Heck, just look at the Saints in the '16 draft.  They made moves and gave up picks, in order to get the 4 guys that they wanted.  Sheldon Rankins and Michael Thomas are now household names, and Vonn Bell and David Onyemate are both first off the bench with their respective units.

It makes no sense to draft lesser talented players with low ceilings, and take 2-4 years to develop them into "decent backups" or "emergency starters".  Just draft quality players, coach them to play ASAP, and let them develop on the field.

Yes. The Bengals seem to see the comp picks as cheap labor.

[Whatever]

(11-26-2018, 08:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They dumped Martavis Bryant, but yes teams lose free agents.

You also have to draft well. The Steelers draft way better than us. And they have way more of a scouting department and a GM.

To be fair, the Steelers have a future HoF'er at QB.  It's still a QB driven league, and it's much easier to be competitive year after year with an elite QB.  

Great coaching also helps those drafts look better.  The Steelers game plan better to their players' strengths and do a better job of developing talent.  You constantly see 3rd and 4th years guys stepping up for them when they're called upon.  In Cincinnati, you can usually identify if a guy is going to be a stud or a dud in year one.  You rarely guys evolve into quality starters over a period of years.

I think the biggest issue I have with the current FO is the constant rollover.  It doesn't really make sense if you're never going to make that all in push or if you don't use it to try to get back in the playoff hunt quickly after a down year or two.  The only other reason is to give a new coach a good chunk of change to bring in their kinds of players, but that will never happen if they never fire Marvin.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-26-2018, 12:04 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I've been one of the most vocal critics of the model.

The compensatory pick model is the worst part of it IMO.

The comp picks BS is just a giant line to save money. The injury money pool is just a bunch of BS to save money. In fact the entire thing is a bunch of BS to save money.

(11-26-2018, 09:15 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Hmm, I'm going to have hold judgement on Pollack until next year.  This year, he was hamstrung with having to keep Fisher and Ogbuehi on hand, for the final year of their rookie deals.  He should get some solid turnover this year, let's just wait and see what he does with it, before we call him a washout.

I do strongly agree with you on the idea that holding those comp picks in such a high regard is severely overvalued.  As you pointed out, I'd rather have 5 solid guys drafted, than 10 dudes with little chance of sticking past a rookie deal.  Heck, just look at the Saints in the '16 draft.  They made moves and gave up picks, in order to get the 4 guys that they wanted.  Sheldon Rankins and Michael Thomas are now household names, and Vonn Bell and David Onyemate are both first off the bench with their respective units.

It makes no sense to draft lesser talented players with low ceilings, and take 2-4 years to develop them into "decent backups" or "emergency starters".  Just draft quality players, coach them to play ASAP, and let them develop on the field.

Totally agree ! To expect Pollack to come in here and work miracles with Larry, Darryl, and Darryl is a bit much.

[THE PISTONS]

(11-26-2018, 11:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The comp picks BS is just a giant line to save money. The injury money pool is just a bunch of BS to save money. In fact the entire thing is a bunch of BS to save money.


Totally agree ! To expect Pollack to come in here and work miracles with Larry, Darryl, and Darryl is a bit much.

They did add a Center in Price and Tackle in Glenn...and it's been underwhelming still. But, yes it likely does take some time.

Why they don't play Westerman over Redmond remains a mystery. Westerman actually grades out decent when he plays.

[*bengalfan74*]

(11-26-2018, 11:58 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They did add a Center in Price and Tackle in Glenn...and it's been underwhelming still. But, yes it likely does take some time.

Why they don't play Westerman over Redmond remains a mystery. Westerman actually grades out decent when he plays.

Redmond is one of the bigger mysteries to me on this team ? Why are they so determined to play him ? Is it Marvin ? Is it Mike ? Is it Pollack ? Is there more to the story we just don't know ?

I mean when piano man was here Ogbuehi, Livings, Gutcheck, Bodine, Dennis Roland etc. were pretty much laid at his feet and probably mostly rightfully so.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in an Oline meeting for this team.

[bengalsturntup926]

(11-27-2018, 12:12 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Redmond is one of the bigger mysteries to me on this team ? Why are they so determined to play him ? Is it Marvin ? Is it Mike ? Is it Pollack ? Is there more to the story we just don't know ?

I mean when piano man was here Ogbuehi, Livings, Gutcheck, Bodine, Dennis Roland etc. were pretty much laid at his feet and probably mostly rightfully so.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall in an Oline meeting for this team.

I know they brag about his potential saying when he stqrts to get it hes goibg to be really good. I think thats probably why.