Whitworth-Bengals lowballed

[BenZoo2]

(12-05-2018, 02:13 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Their fans have had one winning season in the last 15 years, so they can't chuckle at anyone.

And getting rid of older players is the Patriots way of running their organization, so are you going to turn your nose up on a team that has won 4 Super Bowls in the last 15 years or a team that has only one winning season over that span?

How old is Brady? They don’t get rid of older players per se. they get rid of players who are going to expect near top dollar for their position and the pats don’t want to pay that amount. Those players are traded for 1 or 2nd picks. See Richard Seymour, chandler jones, Jamie Collins and Brandon cooks among others. New England is able hold the line on what they will pay because they aggressive, progressive and know other players will still join them for a taste of postseason success. The bengals are/have none of that.

Bengal fans would lose their sheite if we traded players of that caliber


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-05-2018, 11:41 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Wasn't it you that did the thread a couple years ago about how MB being cheap letting high dollar vets go actually cost him money in trying to replace them with the bargain basement guys ?

Yeah, it was the JJo situation.

I don't know where that post is, but it was a pretty absurd list of money/picks spent over the following 4 years trying to replace JJo's production.

Something like...

Brandon Ghee: 3rd round pick, $2.44m rookie deal
Dre Kirkpatrick: 1st round pick, $8.6m rookie deal + $7.5m option
Shaun Prater: 5th round pick, $2.2m rookie deal

Nate Clements: 2yr/$10.5m
Kelly Jennings: Clinton McDonald, $1.8m  (McDonald has 3 seasons of 5+ sacks, and a SB ring now.)
Terrence Newman: 3yr/$5.825m
Jason Allen: 2yr/$8.2m

Basically summed up to be a 1st round pick, 3rd round pick, 5th round pick, Clinton McDonald, and $47.6m.... instead of just giving JJo more guaranteed money on a 5yr/$48.75m deal and getting better production on top of it.

I might have missed something from the original post as far as more detail and maybe a missed player, but that's more or less the jist of it.

Whitworth will totally be/is already a Part 2 of this.


- - - - - - - -
(I don't think I counted Adam Jones, because he was originally just signed as a return guy who then grew into the #3 job. Never was really an attempt to replace JJo's production.)

[Bengalholic]

(12-05-2018, 02:05 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Yes, and no one here despises CO any more than I do. Should the Bengals have used a franchise tag on Whit, maybe.... probably. But, the plain fact is, they offered him the same money the Rams did on a one year deal, and did not want to sign him long term because they thought he was close to being done. Now people want to act like that was some horrible decision that could only be made by our bumbling staff. He got 4 offers... that means 28 teams also had no interest in trying to get one of the left tackles in the game. That right there tells you a long term deal, though it worked out for LA, was not the smart play. Sometimes you win with the dumb play, sometimes you lose with the smart play. I don't think the Bengals hedged all their bets on CO, but probably thought that between CO and Fisher they could get something. Obviously, they were wrong.

To the bold - of course he didn't get offers from all 32 teams. What free agent ever has? The biggest free agent in any given year only has a handful of teams competing for his services for various reasons. For Whit to have 4-5 teams competing for him at age 34 is pretty impressive, wouldn't you say.

Also, the idea that signing Whit was too big of a risk for the Bengals...I'll repeat what I said before. They could have simply structured the deal the same way the Rams did, and other teams were offering to do: guaranteeing 1 year, being able to easily part ways if it didn't work out. Even if they didn't want to go with that low-risk type of deal for whatever reason...they still had the franchise tag available. That would've have gave them another year of Whit's services while having more time to evaluate Og and/or Fisher, which hadn't shown much at that point. IMO, it was a much bigger gamble to bank on OG as the starting LT - and I said it at the time, not just in hindsight - than it was to give Whit at least one more year. But, they decided to roll with Og and here we are.

As for the Rams signing Whit to a 3 year deal not being a smart play, I disagree because they crafted a deal that minimized their risk if things didn't work out. Even though they were desperate for a LT, they didn't go out and give a crazy deal that vastly overpaid or that they wouldn't be able to get out of. IDK man, that's seems pretty smart and reasonable and the Bengals could've easily done the same...but chose not to.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-05-2018, 02:16 PM)McC Wrote: Are you dizzy yet from all the spinning?  What are the Rams NOW, because NOW is the point?  Are they playing a LG at LT?  Have they lost four in a row?  How many years away from 11-1 are the Bengals?  That should keep you spinning for quite awhile.

Exactly,

It doesn't matter where the Rams were 5 years ago, or where we were for that matter. What matters is where we are now.

Just what would an O-line this year of Whitworth, Boling, Price, Zeitler, and a real free agent RT have done for this team this season ?

What would it have done for this team had we been able to run the ball in those last couple minutes against Pittsburgh and actually ran the clock out and won that game ? 

This team has won one of it's last seven games and the Oline is nearly as big a reason why as the defense. How many times have you seen Mixon and Gio get first contact behind the LOS ?

[BenZoo2]

(12-05-2018, 02:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly,

It doesn't matter where the Rams were 5 years ago, or where we were for that matter. What matters is where we are now.

Just what would an O-line this year of Whitworth, Boling, Price, Zeitler, and a real free agent RT have done for this team this season ?

What would it have done for this team had we been able to run the ball in those last couple minutes against Pittsburgh and actually ran the clock out and won that game ? 

This team has won one of it's last seven games and the Oline is nearly as big a reason why as the defense. How many times have you seen Mixon and Gio get first contact behind the LOS ?

Amazing what happens when you fire a crappy coach, have a few good drafts in a row and sign and trade for good players


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sled21]

(12-05-2018, 02:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly,

It doesn't matter where the Rams were 5 years ago, or where we were for that matter. What matters is where we are now.

Just what would an O-line this year of Whitworth, Boling, Price, Zeitler, and a real free agent RT have done for this team this season ?

What would it have done for this team had we been able to run the ball in those last couple minutes against Pittsburgh and actually ran the clock out and won that game ? 

This team has won one of it's last seven games and the Oline is nearly as big a reason why as the defense. How many times have you seen Mixon and Gio get first contact behind the LOS ?

So now we're throwing Zeitler in to the mix. Ok, what would that line look like, probably pretty formidable. But if we paid Whit what he got in LA, and paid Zeitler what he got in Cleveland (which was stupid money) , and paid a free agent RT, who do we not sign?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-05-2018, 02:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly,

It doesn't matter where the Rams were 5 years ago, or where we were for that matter. What matters is where we are now.

Just what would an O-line this year of Whitworth, Boling, Price, Zeitler, and a real free agent RT have done for this team this season ?

What would it have done for this team had we been able to run the ball in those last couple minutes against Pittsburgh and actually ran the clock out and won that game ? 

This team has won one of it's last seven games and the Oline is nearly as big a reason why as the defense. How many times have you seen Mixon and Gio get first contact behind the LOS ?

Damn right.  Imagine what the line would look like if we even had Glenn at RT with what you have lined out there.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-05-2018, 02:38 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Yeah, it was the JJo situation.

I don't know where that post is, but it was a pretty absurd list of money/picks spent over the following 4 years trying to replace JJo's production.

Something like...

Brandon Ghee: 3rd round pick, $2.44m rookie deal
Dre Kirkpatrick: 1st round pick, $8.6m rookie deal + $7.5m option
Shaun Prater: 5th round pick, $2.2m rookie deal

Nate Clements: 2yr/$10.5m
Kelly Jennings: Clinton McDonald, $1.8m  (McDonald has 3 seasons of 5+ sacks, and a SB ring now.)
Terrence Newman: 3yr/$5.825m
Jason Allen: 2yr/$8.2m

Basically summed up to be a 1st round pick, 3rd round pick, 5th round pick, Clinton McDonald, and $47.6m.... instead of just giving JJo more guaranteed money on a 5yr/$48.75m deal and getting better production on top of it.

I might have missed something from the original post as far as more detail and maybe a missed player, but that's more or less the jist of it.

Whitworth will totally be/is already a Part 2 of this.


- - - - - - - -
(I don't think I counted Adam Jones, because he was originally just signed as a return guy who then grew into the #3 job. Never was really an attempt to replace JJo's production.)

Yep...AND being able to use those picks to upgrade other positions on the team.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-05-2018, 02:40 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: To the bold - of course he didn't get offers from all 32 teams. What free agent ever has? The biggest free agent in any given year only has a handful of teams competing for his services for various reasons. For Whit to have 4-5 teams competing for him at age 34 is pretty impressive, wouldn't you say.

Also, the idea that signing Whit was too big of a risk for the Bengals...I'll repeat what I said before. They could have simply structured the deal the same way the Rams did, and other teams were offering to do: guaranteeing 1 year, being able to easily part ways if it didn't work out. Even if they didn't want to go with that low-risk type of deal for whatever reason...they still had the franchise tag available. That would've have gave them another year of Whit's services while having more time to evaluate Og and/or Fisher, which hadn't shown much at that point. IMO, it was a much bigger gamble to bank on OG as the starting LT - and I said it at the time, not just in hindsight - than it was to give Whit at least one more year. But, they decided to roll with Og and here we are.

As for the Rams signing Whit to a 3 year deal not being a smart play, I disagree because they crafted a deal that minimized their risk if things didn't work out. Even though they were desperate for a LT, they didn't go out and give a crazy deal that vastly overpaid or that they wouldn't be able to get out of. IDK man, that's seems pretty smart and reasonable and the Bengals could've easily done the same...but chose not to.

There are people on here who will always defend the Bengals Management no matter what.

They will think that it was injuries. Bad luck. League conspiracies. But...NEVER poor management.

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(12-05-2018, 03:07 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So now we're throwing Zeitler in to the mix. Ok, what would that line look like, probably pretty formidable. But if we paid Whit what he got in LA, and paid Zeitler what he got in Cleveland (which was stupid money) , and paid a free agent RT, who do we not sign?

-I know a certain nefarious and oft-injured linebacker who hasn't been quite worth his 3yr/$32.5m extension since then.
-Also a glass-like TE who has made like $10.3m over the last two years to catch 19/225/1.
-Perhaps a CB who has 13 Pdef and 3 INT in FIVE YEARS, but is making $8.5m this year.
-Or a DE who really doesn't do anything particularly well, but is a Captain for some reason, and is making $4.75m this year.
-Or a LT who has been pretty awful and is making $11.25m.
-Also a CB who got a 5yr/$52m deal to play 10 yards off WRs, miss tackles, and make stupid penalties.
-Or a DIFFERENT LT who is making $3m this year to be a healthy scratch because he's the worst OL I have ever seen.



...That said, I am with you on Zeitler. That was just too much money for him. There were other more-reasonable-yet-good-player FA choices out there, though.

(Can you name all those players? Lol)

[*Go Cards*]

Whit got the last laugh that is for sure.

Pitiful of MB to do to such a loyal and great player.

[masonbengals fan]

(12-05-2018, 05:57 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There are people on here who will always defend the Bengals Management no matter what.

They will think that it was injuries. Bad luck. League conspiracies. But...NEVER poor management.

Nobody could legitimately argue they aren’t poorly run but that goes back to what their goals are.

[RASCAL]

(12-04-2018, 09:40 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Whit said he got a better deal. You are inferring he was talking about money. To a man who doesn't think he is ready to retire, a 3 year deal is better than a one year deal. 

he was tired of being on a losing bunch of shit and didn't want to go through another rebuild! That is MY opinion buy I am NOT the negotiator here and what I say has NO bearing on what really happened. Nether does anyone on this board and especially you and whatever!

[Whatever]

(12-05-2018, 07:12 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Whit got the last laugh that is for sure.

Pitiful of MB to do to such a loyal and great player.

All the organizations that are consistently good are trying to get out from under expensive vets before they start sliding downhill.  That's just the nature of the business.  If they can't, they either ask them to take a pay cut or release them.  I mean the Steelers cut James Harrison and strongarmed Troy Polamalu into retirement.  When you win, the fans don't bat an eye.

Very few non-QB's play out a 10+ year career with one team.  The few that do are great players and are willing to take less money over the course of their career to stay in one place.  Whit was the former, but not the latter.  That doesn't make him a bad guy anymore than it makes the Bengals bad guys for not wanting to write blank checks to a 34 year old T  when they already thought they had his replacement.  

[McC]

(12-05-2018, 08:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: All the organizations that are consistently good are trying to get out from under expensive vets before they start sliding downhill.  That's just the nature of the business.  If they can't, they either ask them to take a pay cut or release them.  I mean the Steelers cut James Harrison and strongarmed Troy Polamalu into retirement.  When you win, the fans don't bat an eye.

Very few non-QB's play out a 10+ year career with one team.  The few that do are great players and are willing to take less money over the course of their career to stay in one place.  Whit was the former, but not the latter.  That doesn't make him a bad guy anymore than it makes the Bengals bad guys for not wanting to write blank checks to a 34 year old T  when they already thought they had his replacement.  

How could they have been THAT stupid?  Who could not see the level of suckiness, especially in CedO? 

There are at least two levels of stupid at play in this debacle.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-05-2018, 08:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: All the organizations that are consistently good are trying to get out from under expensive vets before they start sliding downhill.  That's just the nature of the business.  If they can't, they either ask them to take a pay cut or release them.  I mean the Steelers cut James Harrison and strongarmed Troy Polamalu into retirement.  When you win, the fans don't bat an eye.

Very few non-QB's play out a 10+ year career with one team.  The few that do are great players and are willing to take less money over the course of their career to stay in one place.  Whit was the former, but not the latter.  That doesn't make him a bad guy anymore than it makes the Bengals bad guys for not wanting to write blank checks to a 34 year old T  when they already thought they had his replacement.  

So what you're saying is Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis are doing a fine job and they should continue operating as they have been ? It's only dumb luck that they haven't produced a single playoff win in 28 and 16 years respectively. As long as they keep doing what they're doing sooner or later all the stars will lineup, the football gods will smile on us, hell will freeze over and we're bound to stumble into a competitive team somehow, somewhere.

Got it  :andy:

[Whatever]

(12-05-2018, 08:41 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: So what you're saying is Mike Brown and Marvin Lewis are doing a fine job and they should continue operating as they have been ? It's only dumb luck that they haven't produced a single playoff win in 28 and 16 years respectively. As long as they keep doing what they're doing sooner or later all the stars will lineup, the football gods will smile on us, hell will freeze over and we're bound to stumble into a competitive team somehow, somewhere.

Got it  :andy:

That's not what I'm saying at all.  There are a ton of things I'd change if for some stupid and miraculous reason I inherited the Bengals tomorrow.  Like....

1.Build an indoor practice facility.
2.Renovate/rebuild PBS and bring it up to modern standards
3.Hire a GM
4.Fire Marvin(probably wait til after the season at this point)
5.Hire more scouts
6.Obtain compromising photos of Roger Goodell
7.Encourage the new GM to bring in top FA's once in awhile.
8.Encourage the new GM to cut bait with aging/underperforming talent
9.Give the new HC full control over his staff

I just don't see directing my GM to give 34 year old T's huge multiyear contracts as one of those changes.

The value of every player in the league is relative to the team.  There are teams like the Broncos and Jags that would be all over Phillip Rivers for $12 mil a year and there are teams like the Pats and Packers that would be like "Maybe for $5 mil."  In Whit's situation, we had an owner that made an incorrect valuation based on the review of two young players behind him(Og and Fisher) by a pair of coaches he should have fired years ago(Marvin and Alexander).  We should have used the FT in retrospect, but Mikey also misjudged the market for Whit and/or Whit's loyalty to the team.

However, inferring that we should have just paid Whit whatever he asked for so he could retire a Bengal on the basis of loyalty is silly.  Winning teams don't do that.  Loyalty is also a two way street.  Paying a guy whatever he asks so he doesn't leave isn't loyalty, either.  The Bengals could have offered more and Whit could have taken less.  I'm sure there were very few 34 year old non-QB's that year that made $10 million.  

[THE PISTONS]

(12-05-2018, 06:45 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: -I know a certain nefarious and oft-injured linebacker who hasn't been quite worth his 3yr/$32.5m extension since then.
-Also a glass-like TE who has made like $10.3m over the last two years to catch 19/225/1.
-Perhaps a CB who has 13 Pdef and 3 INT in FIVE YEARS, but is making $8.5m this year.
-Or a DE who really doesn't do anything particularly well, but is a Captain for some reason, and is making $4.75m this year.
-Or a LT who has been pretty awful and is making $11.25m.
-Also a CB who got a 5yr/$52m deal to play 10 yards off WRs, miss tackles, and make stupid penalties.
-Or a DIFFERENT LT who is making $3m this year to be a healthy scratch because he's the worst OL I have ever seen.



...That said, I am with you on Zeitler. That was just too much money for him. There were other more-reasonable-yet-good-player FA choices out there, though.

(Can you name all those players? Lol)

THIS IS GREAT!

You know, at the time...A LOT of this board stood with Mike Brown in not paying a Guard that much money. Well...THIS is the roster we got...and they made all of those bad investments that you detailed!

[THE PISTONS]

(12-05-2018, 08:02 PM)Whatever Wrote: All the organizations that are consistently good are trying to get out from under expensive vets before they start sliding downhill.  That's just the nature of the business.  If they can't, they either ask them to take a pay cut or release them.  I mean the Steelers cut James Harrison and strongarmed Troy Polamalu into retirement.  When you win, the fans don't bat an eye.

Very few non-QB's play out a 10+ year career with one team.  The few that do are great players and are willing to take less money over the course of their career to stay in one place.  Whit was the former, but not the latter.  That doesn't make him a bad guy anymore than it makes the Bengals bad guys for not wanting to write blank checks to a 34 year old T  when they already thought they had his replacement.  

It's a total myth that the Bengals thought they had his replacement. Ced had already struggled at RT at that point.

Also, there is no way they offer him even a 1 year deal if they felt that Ced and Fisher could do it.

Look...they're starting Hart this year at RT who was terrible last year and waived by the Giants. Sometimes they just do what's cheap.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-05-2018, 10:28 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's a total myth that the Bengals thought they had his replacement. Ced had already struggled at RT at that point.

Also, there is no way they offer him even a 1 year deal if they felt that Ced and Fisher could do it.

Look...they're starting Hart this year at RT who was terrible last year and waived by the Giants. Sometimes they just do what's cheap.

Nearly always MB does what costs him less ! His first 3 priorities are 1. $$$$$$$ 2. $$$$$$$ 3. How can he save more $$$$$$$

To pretend otherwise is just not facing reality.