2019 Salary Cap - Bengals Cap Space

[McC]

(12-11-2018, 08:28 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:

NFL Salary Cap projection of $190 million sounds good, until considering each team gets an NFL distribution check of over $250 million before they turn the lights on. #NFL

— Andrew Brandt (@AndrewBrandt) December 11, 2018

...and that's why Mike Brown doesn't give two shits about what the fans think. 

For an amount that size, do they write one of those really big tv checks or do they just  whip out a plain old checkbook?  Two hundred fifty million dollars and xx/100 cents.

If they use Netspend direct deposit, they get it a day early.

[Whatever]

(12-11-2018, 10:00 PM)Joelist Wrote: The real problem comes in when you look at profitability. IIRC you basically have to be the Dallas Cowboys to make real money. Most everyone else is in the 10-15 million per year profit club. Now add in that profit and loss looks at things like signing bonuses differently than the cap - that 60 million signing bonus on the 6 year deals may only be $10 million against the cap but it is 60 million off of P & L. Ever wonder why we backload instead of front load deals and are not so enthusiastic about signing bonuses?

Then there is the fact that the Bengals ownership has no other business interests. This is pretty unusual in the NFL, and I think the only other franchise like this is Green Bay. What it means is the club cannot be run at a loss and as a tax write off like a lot of others can be.

This does not excuse the many flaws of ownership, among which are that for people in a resource constrained environment they do not do a good job of prioriotizing where the money needs to go to increase the profitability of the product - create a better product and revenue can go up. But perhaps it sheds a little light on the sometimes strange behavior of ownership.

Another factor is that when the Bengals were founded, Paul Brown only actually had 10% ownership of the team. Over the decades, Paul slowly started to buy out his partners and this duty fell to Mikey after his passing.  For example, Mike paid out over $200 million in buying up Bengals shares in 2011.  The Brown family still only controls about 85% of the shares.  It could be said that when you look at the current value of NFL franchises and league growth that Paul should have pushed harder, earlier when it could've been done a lot cheaper.  

In any case, the Bengals will definitely have the cap space to make some major moves this off-season if they so choose.  They don't really have any FA's they absolutely need to resign.  They will probably earmark some for a Boyd extension, but it will be interesting to see what else they do.  

[Bengal Dude]

(12-11-2018, 10:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: The Hunt family are billionaires and run the Chiefs as a hobby. Their fortunes are in (among other industries) energy. 

The Bengals are one of the few billion dollar "mom and pop" businesses. I'm always amazed at that concept.

[Joelist]

(12-12-2018, 01:19 AM)Whatever Wrote: Another factor is that when the Bengals were founded, Paul Brown only actually had 10% ownership of the team. Over the decades, Paul slowly started to buy out his partners and this duty fell to Mikey after his passing.  For example, Mike paid out over $200 million in buying up Bengals shares in 2011.  The Brown family still only controls about 85% of the shares.  It could be said that when you look at the current value of NFL franchises and league growth that Paul should have pushed harder, earlier when it could've been done a lot cheaper.  

In any case, the Bengals will definitely have the cap space to make some major moves this off-season if they so choose.  They don't really have any FA's they absolutely need to resign.  They will probably earmark some for a Boyd extension, but it will be interesting to see what else they do.  

Yep! I was just pointing out that the fiscal realities of the franchise cause the club not to do things their cap would otherwise allow. 

[Catmandude123]

(12-11-2018, 08:01 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Salary cap update for 2019:

NFL told its teams today that the 2019 salary cap is projected to be in the range of $187-to-$191.1 millon.

— Adam Schefter (@AdamSchefter) December 11, 2018

The Bengals also have about 8.5m that can be rolled over, making their total projected cap to be 195.5-199.6m.

Right now, the Bengals look to have 138.6m allocated in total cap for 2019, counting dead money. 

That seems to leave them with about 57-61m in cap space next year, depending on the final numbers.

Are the existing contracts guaranteed? Underperforming existing players who have no more or little guaranteed money left on their current contracts ought to have to renegotiate their contracts(ie Burfict, Dre, Glenn). Other teams do this all the time why don't the Bengals?

[Gamma Ray Tan]

(12-12-2018, 01:48 AM)Bengal Dude Wrote: The Bengals are one of the few billion dollar "mom and pop" businesses. I'm always amazed at that concept.

This is the biggest disadvantage the Bengals have compared to other franchises. Most owners don’t use the team to generate profits for themselves because they have other endeavors that do that for them. Owning an NFL team is an ego thing and Winning is priority #1.....not a “job.” It’s like having a really expensive hobby. One of the greatest things I’ve heard about owning a NFL franchise came from Bob Kraft who said, (and I’m paraphrasing) “If you’re in the NFL to make money, then get out! It’s about Winning”

[Gamma Ray Tan]

CINCINNATI BENGALS: MIKE BROWN
Article from 2015 on where nfl owners made their fortunes: The HOW HE GOT RICH part is very telling.

Owner Since: 1991

The Numbers: Mike Brown took over the Bengals after his father’s death in 1991. The team is worth an estimated $990 million.

Total Control: Mike Brown works as the general manager of the Bengals, and is one of only two owners in the NFL to do so. The Cowboys’ Jerry Jones is the other, which doesn’t help Brown in deflecting any criticism that he’s a control freak.

How He Got Rich: Mike Brown’s father, Paul Brown, was the namesake and first coach of Ohio’s other team, the Browns. He went on to co-found and own the Bengals before leaving the team to his son. Like the Halas family, the Browns’ money comes from football. Should football one day cease to exist, the Browns would be penniless and confused, wandering through the Midwest wondering where their publicly-funded stadiums and fortune went. Luckily for them, football has continued to exist and looks relatively stable.

[sandwedge]

(12-11-2018, 10:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We have to have one of the plainest stadiums in the NFL.

The Cowboys stadium is about 1000 times more entertainment value. Plus, they host a lot of other events there. We're bland.

Oh c'mon now, didn't we just improve the Wifi system a couple of seasons ago?

[Bengalholic]

(12-11-2018, 10:38 PM)Joelist Wrote: The Hunt family are billionaires and run the Chiefs as a hobby. Their fortunes are in (among other industries) energy. 

Ha, I was going mostly for the joke at the end, but I guess that failed miserably. 

On a more serious note though, when you look at Mike Brown, his estimated net worth is around one billion. A guy like Pat Bowlen of the Broncos is also estimated at one billion. The Raiders Mark Davis is only worth half that. Both are ranked among the "poorest" NFL owners. Bill Bidwell is worth just a little more than Mike, and his family has made the majority of their money in football. The Rooney family is worth just over one billion, and again, the majority came from football. Another example are the McCaskey's in Chicago where the entire family worth is around 1.5 billion and most of that wealth came from football.

I'm just saying let's not cry poverty for Mike Brown or say that he can't operate on equal footing. For me, it comes down to the owner's philosophy, decisions and how they choose to spend the money. 

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2018, 11:31 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Are the existing contracts guaranteed? Underperforming existing players who have no more or little guaranteed money left on their current contracts ought to have to renegotiate their contracts(ie Burfict, Dre, Glenn). Other teams do this all the time why don't the Bengals?

Unfortunately, most of the time they get more money not less. There's little incentive for guys to take pay cuts...since if they get waived they get the guaranteed portion of the contract, plus they can sign with a new team and get paid that way too.

Glenn's contract had very little guaranteed from what I've saw.

[BenZoo2]

I have stumbled on ebenezer’s cap strategy. He will spend up to the previous years cap while pocketing the difference in this years cap. Every time the cap goes up that’s pure profit. Pure genius I tell ya!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Catmandude123]

(12-12-2018, 12:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Unfortunately, most of the time they get more money not less. There's little incentive for guys to take pay cuts...since if they get waived they get the guaranteed portion of the contract, plus they can sign with a new team and get paid that way too.

Glenn's contract had very little guaranteed from what I've saw.

Other teams know how to get underperforming players to take less or they cut them and use that money to sign free agents or resign overperforming players. The Bengals problems stem from paying these players most of the money upfront so they control todays payroll but they have no options when the performance drops.

[Joelist]

(12-12-2018, 12:43 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Ha, I was going mostly for the joke at the end, but I guess that failed miserably. 

On a more serious note though, when you look at Mike Brown, his estimated net worth is around one billion. A guy like Pat Bowlen of the Broncos is also estimated at one billion. The Raiders Mark Davis is only worth half that. Both are ranked among the "poorest" NFL owners. Bill Bidwell is worth just a little more than Mike, and his family has made the majority of their money in football. The Rooney family is worth just over one billion, and again, the majority came from football. Another example are the McCaskey's in Chicago where the entire family worth is around 1.5 billion and most of that wealth came from football.

I'm just saying let's not cry poverty for Mike Brown or say that he can't operate on equal footing. For me, it comes down to the owner's philosophy, decisions and how they choose to spend the money. 

Note what I said is that the basics of cash flow accounting for a franchise whose owners have no side businesses and therefore cannot run the team at a loss lead to some (not all) of the strange decisions we see the club make. 

[Catmandude123]

(12-11-2018, 10:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: We have to have one of the plainest stadiums in the NFL.

The Cowboys stadium is about 1000 times more entertainment value. Plus, they host a lot of other events there. We're bland.

Jerry Jones payed for half the cost of their stadium. Mike Brown payed zilch.
So for what we get from the Bengals you think the taxpayers should be on the hook for another 600 million?

[Bengalholic]

(12-12-2018, 01:29 PM)Joelist Wrote: Note what I said is that the basics of cash flow accounting for a franchise whose owners have no side businesses and therefore cannot run the team at a loss lead to some (not all) of the strange decisions we see the club make. 

Is cash flow a factor when deciding to retain a head coach for 16 years with a playoff win. Is it a factor when deciding to value comp picks over (at the very least) decent mid-tier free agents who don't require huge signing bonuses? Is it a factor when they hang on to underperforming players too long instead of cutting them and using the cap savings to improve the team? 

All I'm trying to say is that whether you're the richest or poorest owner in the league, it ultimately comes down to the decisions you make and how you spend the money you have. This is where I think Mike continues to fail time after time. Even if he had Bill Gates type money, would he actually spend it wisely and effectively? 

[Joelist]

(12-12-2018, 01:42 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Is cash flow a factor when deciding to retain a head coach for 16 years with a playoff win. Is it a factor when deciding to value comp picks over (at the very least) decent mid-tier free agents who don't require huge signing bonuses? Is it a factor when they hang on to underperforming players too long instead of cutting them and using the cap savings to improve the team? 

All I'm trying to say is that whether you're the richest or poorest owner in the league, it ultimately comes down to the decisions you make and how you spend the money you have. This is where I think Mike continues to fail time after time. Even if he had Bill Gates type money, would he actually spend it wisely and effectively? 

Hi!


I don't know why you think I am disagreeing with you. I was just contexting some (not all) of the weird stuff we see them do. Other stuff (like you mentioned) is not defensible as it has nothing to do with limited financial resources and more to do with lack of football acumen in the front office. 

Where this inability to float losses DOES show itself is more in the world of contract structures (like signing bonuses), going after really big contracts and indeed our continual rolling over of cap is a symptom of it. Basically anything that is a cash payout is in play here as they affect the bottom line immediately. One could claim the small scouting department and lack of a practice bubble fall here also, but I also attribute the small scouting department to front office lack of acumen in things football. 

[Mike M (the other one)]

We will rarely if ever sign a FA, he doesn't want to give up those Comp picks, so we are doomed to looking for players other teams cut.

I was so PO'ed this past year. It's like the OL is a mess, and we could've signed about 3 decent players for next to nothing in our quest to find our RG and RT instead of trying to sign cast offs. It wasn't like they didn't know there was a problem with the OL. They just won't address it in FA because Mike won't give up those comps.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-11-2018, 08:46 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Let me translate this to Mike Brown thought process.

$195M
minus $139M from current contracts
equals $56M
minus $20M for rookie pool - higher picks means bigger rookie pool - sorry fans
equals $36M
minus $8M for injury replacements - we had lots of injuries last year, so play it safe and comfortable
equals $28M
minus $12M rollover to extend AJ Green or someone else
equals $16M
minus $12M to resign own free agents
equals $4M
minus $4M to sign player cut by other teams we can get on 1 year prove it deals.
equals all used up and Bengals have no cap space to quality free agents from other teams.


There I just wrote Hopson's future article that will be released just before free agency period opens in 2019. I might be off by a million or two here and a million or two there, but overall that's how the Hopson article will read.

Bengals don't have more than one pick in each of the top 4 rounds. They will only end up costing about $7-8 mill for all picks.
Bengals have also never stated they are reserving more than $5 mill for injuries, however, they do reserve more than most teams (teams typically reserve between $2-5 mill).
So I think it's safe to just expect a total of $13 mill reserved between draft and injuries.

$12 mill seems like a lot for re-signing own FAs, as I think most of their upcoming FAs are expendable. I think it breaks down to whether Dennard stays or goes. I don't want to see Hart, Ogbuehi, Redmond, MJ, or Rey back. I'd be fine with Hopkins (backup-level) and Smith back. I'm indifferent with Fisher and Preston Brown. I don't really care to see Eifert back unless it's under $3 mill. I don't think both Kroft and Uzomah get retained, just one.

I think it also makes sense to release Burfict to free up additional cap. He's not the same player he was even a year ago.

That would make the following positions open for draft/FA (could be filled with existing):
- 5 OL spots (Redmond, Hopkins, Hart, Fisher, Ogbuehi)
- 2 LB spots (Rey, Brown)
- 3 TE spots (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- 1 CB spot (Dennard)
- 1 DL spot (MJ)
- 1 S spot (Wilson)
----------------------
13 spots

EDIT - What I've been thinking is this offseason...
Re-sign:
Andre Smith
Trey Hopkins
CJ Uzomah or Tyler Kroft (I honestly don't see much difference between the two)
Brandon Wilson (depth purposes only, no guarantee he would make roster)
Darqueze Dennard

Release Vontaze Burfict (would save $6.85 mill in cap space 2019 and $8.93 mill in 2020)

Outside FA:
Jared Cook, 2 year deal
KJ Wright, 3 year deal

That would fill up 6 of the 13 spots. Use the draft to get your new stud LB to go next to Wright, OG, TE to groom behind Cook, OT to groom behind Smith, and also DE, DT, S, 1-2 more OL.
The Bengals are projected to get three 6th-round comp picks so that would be 10 total picks.
https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/5/21/17374364/bengals-projected-to-net-3-compensatory-picks-2019-nfl-draft

[THE PISTONS]

(12-12-2018, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals don't have more than one pick in each of the top 4 rounds. They will only end up costing about $7-8 mill for all picks.
Bengals have also never stated they are reserving more than $5 mill for injuries, however, they do reserve more than most teams (teams typically reserve between $2-5 mill).
So I think it's safe to just expect a total of $13 mill reserved between draft and injuries.

$12 mill seems like a lot for re-signing own FAs, as I think most of their upcoming FAs are expendable. I think it breaks down to whether Dennard stays or goes. I don't want to see Hart, Ogbuehi, Redmond, MJ, or Rey back. I'd be fine with Hopkins (backup-level) and Smith back. I'm indifferent with Fisher and Preston Brown. I don't really care to see Eifert back unless it's under $3 mill. I don't think both Kroft and Uzomah get retained, just one.

I think it also makes sense to release Burfict to free up additional cap. He's not the same player he was even a year ago.

That would make the following positions open for draft/FA (could be filled with existing):
- 5 OL spots (Redmond, Hopkins, Hart, Fisher, Ogbuehi)
- 2 LB spots (Rey, Brown)
- 3 TE spots (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- 1 CB spot (Dennard)
- 1 DL spot (MJ)
- 1 S spot (Wilson)
----------------------
13 spots

It's going to be interesting. We should be able to draft a Tackle in the 1st Round and a LB or Guard in the 2nd Round.

IF we draft a QB...that all goes out the window though.

Putting a rookie QB behind a bad offensive line isn't a way to win.

[*Synric*]

(12-12-2018, 02:25 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Bengals don't have more than one pick in each of the top 4 rounds. They will only end up costing about $7-8 mill for all picks.
Bengals have also never stated they are reserving more than $5 mill for injuries, however, they do reserve more than most teams (teams typically reserve between $2-5 mill).
So I think it's safe to just expect a total of $13 mill reserved between draft and injuries.

$12 mill seems like a lot for re-signing own FAs, as I think most of their upcoming FAs are expendable. I think it breaks down to whether Dennard stays or goes. I don't want to see Hart, Ogbuehi, Redmond, MJ, or Rey back. I'd be fine with Hopkins (backup-level) and Smith back. I'm indifferent with Fisher and Preston Brown. I don't really care to see Eifert back unless it's under $3 mill. I don't think both Kroft and Uzomah get retained, just one.

I think it also makes sense to release Burfict to free up additional cap. He's not the same player he was even a year ago.

That would make the following positions open for draft/FA (could be filled with existing):
- 5 OL spots (Redmond, Hopkins, Hart, Fisher, Ogbuehi)
- 2 LB spots (Rey, Brown)
- 3 TE spots (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- 1 CB spot (Dennard)
- 1 DL spot (MJ)
- 1 S spot (Wilson)
----------------------
13 spots

I hope they look at replacing Tyler Kroft as the inline TE. He has just never developed in a solid blocking TE. Maybe look at a guy like Nick Boyle from the Ravens.