3-4 Defense?

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-21-2018, 10:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have been considering the idea that, if by some miracle, we got a new coach would they move this defense to a 3-4? I actually think we have the personnel to do it, and it may actually suit us better.

D Line:

The obvious advantage here is we get to play Billings as more of his natural 0 technique heads up over a center. I think this is where he would shine. We then kick Atkins out to play DE, which for him won't be that much different then his current roll if we do it as a single gap scheme like an over front. The biggest change will be Dunlap who also will play DE but in a slightly different roll than he is used to as this new roll will put him more inside but with the advantage of being matched up against a guard. With Geno on the other side he will get single looks against the guard most often as the additional outside rusher will come from his side the majority of the time I'd guess.

Starters: Atkins, Billings, Dunlap
Back Ups: Willis, Tupou, TBD/Glasgow/Brown

Rush Linebackers/OLB:

This is where I think we get our advantage from the move. We have two chess pieces that we can stand up and move around who offer some versatility. First we have Sam Hubbard who has shown he can kind of do it all this year. He has shown athleticism playing on special teams, FB, and rushing the passer from multiple positions. I think we can use him as a rusher as well as put him in coverage, and relative to other 3-4 OLBs he would probably excel at that. The other forgotten piece of this is Carl Lawson. While he won't offer as much in terms of coverage, when it comes to being a 3-4 OLB you really don't have to be great in coverage and there are ways to hide a single poor coverage OLB. I figure that Lawson would play the "Jack" linebacker and Hubbard the "Sam". With Hubbard and Lawson on the field along with our three down linemen we now have options to get creative with all our best pass rushers on the field at the same time.

Starters: Lawson, Hubbard
Back Ups: Will need veterans or draft picks

Inside Linebackers:

The other advantage to the move I believe is the talent needed to play inside linebacker in a 3-4 is slightly different. You can have a little less athletic linebackers inside because of the guys outside being up and able to play a bit more laterally than down linemen. I think Vigil could play the "Will" and control the backside using his ability to run down guys to his advantage being a bit more inside. The "Mike" position would require us to either draft someone or roll with Burfict one last time. I'd prefer to cut Burfict and draft a guy like White or Wilson in the first to take on this roll.

Starters: Rookie, Vigil
Back Ups: Evans, Nickerson

Overall the thing we gain is more pass rushing talent on the field at the same time. The other thing it let's us do is get a bit more creative moving guys around in the pre snap. I have always envied the disguising you can do in a 3-4 that isn't as easy to do with the 4-3. I would also be curious how much this would improve our run defense as a lot of the top run defenses in the league implement a 3-4.

The annual 3-4 Defense thread eh? Actually i think it is actually more pertinent this year for the reasons you speak of.

I do believe Billings can be that NT with his strength and ability to take up blockers and he is getting better and is still
really young. Think this would help our Linebackers who besides Vigil have been terrible this year. Drafting a playmaking
MIKE like White would go a long ways too and you are right about Hubbard who is extremely versatile and can cover
being that he was a Safety in High School.

Lawson might be the question mark with his lack of coverage but if we used him as the JACK it could be fun like you
said and lets the new DC get creative. Fun thread Au165, fun thread.

[THE PISTONS]

(12-21-2018, 01:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The annual 3-4 Defense thread eh? Actually i think it is actually more pertinent this year for the reasons you speak of.

I do believe Billings can be that NT with his strength and ability to take up blockers and he is getting better and is still
really young. Think this would help our Linebackers who besides Vigil have been terrible this year. Drafting a playmaking
MIKE like White would go a long ways too and you are right about Hubbard who is extremely versatile and can cover
being that he was a Safety in High School.

Lawson might be the question mark with his lack of coverage but if we used him as the JACK it could be fun like you
said and lets the new DC get creative. Fun thread Au165, fun thread.

I think we have to ask ourselves...in the modern pass happy NFL, what defense gives us a chance to win?

We likely need to add personnel either route we go.

I actually tend to favor more defensive backs than LB's...for pass coverage and speed.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-21-2018, 01:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think we have to ask ourselves...in the modern pass happy NFL, what defense gives us a chance to win?

We likely need to add personnel either route we go.

I actually tend to favor more defensive backs than LB's...for pass coverage and speed.

I agree, either way we would have to add players, might even have to add more in a 4-3 cause the LB'ers are bad.

We have this thread every year but man it actually makes sense this time around.

[Fullrock]

(12-21-2018, 01:37 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The annual 3-4 Defense thread eh? Actually i think it is actually more pertinent this year for the reasons you speak of.

I do believe Billings can be that NT with his strength and ability to take up blockers and he is getting better and is still
really young. Think this would help our Linebackers who besides Vigil have been terrible this year. Drafting a playmaking
MIKE like White would go a long ways too and you are right about Hubbard who is extremely versatile and can cover
being that he was a Safety in High School.

Lawson might be the question mark with his lack of coverage but if we used him as the JACK it could be fun like you
said and lets the new DC get creative. Fun thread Au165, fun thread.

Hubbard weighed 225 pounds as a high school safety. He's now at 270. Anyone know of a 270 pound LB playing in a 3-4? Are there any out there that big?

[BengalChris]

It's really not a bad idea. We do lack LBers. I've been a bit bewildered at why we don't at least try to force our opponents to make adjustments by switching between schemes during games. We'd have more talent on the field with what we have right now because we'd be taking a LB out of the picture by using Willis and Hubbard as rush backers. Fej could actually play a cover LB spot in a pinch.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-21-2018, 10:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have been considering the idea that, if by some miracle, we got a new coach would they move this defense to a 3-4? I actually think we have the personnel to do it, and it may actually suit us better.

D Line:

The obvious advantage here is we get to play Billings as more of his natural 0 technique heads up over a center. I think this is where he would shine. We then kick Atkins out to play DE, which for him won't be that much different then his current roll if we do it as a single gap scheme like an over front. The biggest change will be Dunlap who also will play DE but in a slightly different roll than he is used to as this new roll will put him more inside but with the advantage of being matched up against a guard. With Geno on the other side he will get single looks against the guard most often as the additional outside rusher will come from his side the majority of the time I'd guess.

Starters: Atkins, Billings, Dunlap
Back Ups: Willis, Tupou, TBD/Glasgow/Brown

Rush Linebackers/OLB:

This is where I think we get our advantage from the move. We have two chess pieces that we can stand up and move around who offer some versatility. First we have Sam Hubbard who has shown he can kind of do it all this year. He has shown athleticism playing on special teams, FB, and rushing the passer from multiple positions. I think we can use him as a rusher as well as put him in coverage, and relative to other 3-4 OLBs he would probably excel at that. The other forgotten piece of this is Carl Lawson. While he won't offer as much in terms of coverage, when it comes to being a 3-4 OLB you really don't have to be great in coverage and there are ways to hide a single poor coverage OLB. I figure that Lawson would play the "Jack" linebacker and Hubbard the "Sam". With Hubbard and Lawson on the field along with our three down linemen we now have options to get creative with all our best pass rushers on the field at the same time.

Starters: Lawson, Hubbard
Back Ups: Will need veterans or draft picks

Inside Linebackers:

The other advantage to the move I believe is the talent needed to play inside linebacker in a 3-4 is slightly different. You can have a little less athletic linebackers inside because of the guys outside being up and able to play a bit more laterally than down linemen. I think Vigil could play the "Will" and control the backside using his ability to run down guys to his advantage being a bit more inside. The "Mike" position would require us to either draft someone or roll with Burfict one last time. I'd prefer to cut Burfict and draft a guy like White or Wilson in the first to take on this roll.

Starters: Rookie, Vigil
Back Ups: Evans, Nickerson

Overall the thing we gain is more pass rushing talent on the field at the same time. The other thing it let's us do is get a bit more creative moving guys around in the pre snap. I have always envied the disguising you can do in a 3-4 that isn't as easy to do with the 4-3. I would also be curious how much this would improve our run defense as a lot of the top run defenses in the league implement a 3-4.

I'm 100% for it !

(12-21-2018, 10:07 AM)Wyche Wrote: I agree....hadn't really thought about our personnel like that, but it could work.  I've wanted to switch it up for a while, but was concerned over whether we had the personnel or not.  The way you put it here, it looks like it could work much better than I thought.

Except for one piece......hell to the no on Nickerson.  I've seen enough.

Agree on Nickerson. He may be the worst I've ever seen play the game.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-21-2018, 01:59 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree, either way we would have to add players, might even have to add more in a 4-3 cause the LB'ers are bad.

We have this thread every year but man it actually makes sense this time around.

Like AU says it's so much easier to disguise out of the 3-4. 

I think one of our bigger problems on D of late has been we're way to easy to read. We line up in base 4-3 and play really vanilla, to much zone, rarely blitz and when we do it obvious,  and so on.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-21-2018, 02:16 PM)Fullrock Wrote: Hubbard weighed 225 pounds as a high school safety. He's now at 270. Anyone know of a 270 pound LB playing in a 3-4? Are there any out there that big?

It is a good question, just saying Hubbard can cover.

Lawson? Not so much.

(12-21-2018, 02:17 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's really not a bad idea. We do lack LBers. I've been a bit bewildered at why we don't at least try to force our opponents to make adjustments by switching between schemes during games. We'd have more talent on the field with what we have right now because we'd be taking a LB out of the picture by using Willis and Hubbard as rush backers. Fej could actually play a cover LB spot in a pinch.

Nice post Chris, Fej definately should be in this conversation.

(12-21-2018, 02:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Like AU says it's so much easier to disguise out of the 3-4. 

I think one of our bigger problems on D of late has been we're way to easy to read. We line up in base 4-3 and play really vanilla, to much zone, rarely blitz and when we do it obvious,  and so on.

Yep, this is why i keep putting this on the coaching. Doesn't even matter about the players if you are putting them
in a bad situation all the time by not even trying to confuse an Offense. Like Chris here says, making adjustments by
switching between schemes during games. Remember when Guenther did this against Peyton and the Broncos and it
was a thing of beauty and we never seemed to do it again?

[J24]

I don't think it really matters what scheme we run as long as we're aggressive in our coverage.

[sandwedge]

(12-21-2018, 02:17 PM)BengalChris Wrote: It's really not a bad idea. We do lack LBers. I've been a bit bewildered at why we don't at least try to force our opponents to make adjustments by switching between schemes during games. We'd have more talent on the field with what we have right now because we'd be taking a LB out of the picture by using Willis and Hubbard as rush backers. Fej could actually play a cover LB spot in a pinch.

I'd like to see Fej gain about 15 more pounds. I think Buchanon gained a little weight and the Cards were able to play him at LB

[J24]

(12-21-2018, 03:23 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I don't think it really matters what scheme we run as long as we're aggressive in our coverage.

I think we could transition to it but we would need to find an actual Sam LB. Like Josh Allen from Kentucky.
3-4 Ends- Dunlap, Willis, Hubbard, Atkins, Ringo,
Nose- Billings,  Glasgow
Line Backers
Middle- Vigil, Vontaz, Draft pick, Evans
Sam-  Jefferson, Free agent
Edge -Lawson, Draft pick

[TheUberHuber]

I like the idea of a 3/4, and we definitely have the lineman for it.... just not with our current linebackers. our current linebackers cant even play a 4/3 well.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(12-21-2018, 04:47 PM)TheUberHuber Wrote: I like the idea of a 3/4, and we definitely have the lineman for it.... just not with our current linebackers.  our current linebackers cant even play a 4/3 well.

That is what is nice, it takes a Linebacker off the field lol

[Yojimbo]

Considering the majority of plays are run in Nickel or Dime, arguing about a “base” set seems silly. I’d rather be discussing whether a 3 safety set more often would work better in today’s game. 4-2-5 w/3 safeties.

[muskiesfan]

While I like the idea of a 3-4, my worry is how management would **** it up. We run a 4-3. Have for a minute. Yet how many times have we drafted "tweeners" or even signed 3-4 LBs to try and fit that square peg in the round hole of our defense? If we switch, I have no doubt we will be drafting and signing players with a skillset that is better suited to a 4-3. It's just the Mike Brown way.

[The Caped Crusader]

(12-21-2018, 05:32 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Considering the majority of plays are run in Nickel or Dime, arguing about a “base” set seems silly. I’d rather be discussing whether a 3 safety set more often would work better in today’s game. 4-2-5 w/3 safeties.

We actually run A LOT of base. It's pretty maddening, actually.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 05:43 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: We actually run A LOT of base. It's pretty maddening, actually.

We saw a lot of 12 personnel this year because we had a lot of issues with stopping the run. Why would people spread the field if they can just run it right at us?

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2018, 03:53 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I think we could transition to it but we would need to find an actual Sam LB. Like Josh Allen from Kentucky.
3-4 Ends- Dunlap, Willis, Hubbard, Atkins, Ringo,
Nose- Billings,  Glasgow
Line Backers
Middle- Vigil, Vontaz, Draft pick, Evans
Sam-  Jefferson, Free agent
Edge -Lawson, Draft pick

I'd love to get Josh Allen in stripes. Kid can just flat out play ball.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-21-2018, 11:55 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not worried about the speed. They let him play coverage in camp and he ran with Joe Mixon down the sideline 30 yards. I said this in a draft thread, 40 times on linebackers aren't as important as people pretend they are. If a guy diagnoses a play a half second faster then it allows them to be in the right place. It's why Burfict used to be serviceable even with his horrible 40 time.

Burfict used to be "serviceable"?  C'mon man, he was a Super Destroyer.  Why would you take a swipe at a guy that's obviously going through some mental/emotional difficulties in his life?  Yeah, he's played very poorly of late, and likely should be released for the good of the team.  However, that is no reason to take shots at him and belittle all that he's done in the past for the team.

[J24]

(12-21-2018, 05:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: We saw a lot of 12 personnel this year because we had a lot of issues with stopping the run. Why would people spread the field if they can just run it right at us?

Isn't that how teams have always beaten us though?I remember 2012 Texans playoff game and 2013 playoff game as a dink and dunk special.