3-4 Defense?

[Au165]

I have been considering the idea that, if by some miracle, we got a new coach would they move this defense to a 3-4? I actually think we have the personnel to do it, and it may actually suit us better.

D Line:

The obvious advantage here is we get to play Billings as more of his natural 0 technique heads up over a center. I think this is where he would shine. We then kick Atkins out to play DE, which for him won't be that much different then his current roll if we do it as a single gap scheme like an over front. The biggest change will be Dunlap who also will play DE but in a slightly different roll than he is used to as this new roll will put him more inside but with the advantage of being matched up against a guard. With Geno on the other side he will get single looks against the guard most often as the additional outside rusher will come from his side the majority of the time I'd guess.

Starters: Atkins, Billings, Dunlap
Back Ups: Willis, Tupou, TBD/Glasgow/Brown

Rush Linebackers/OLB:

This is where I think we get our advantage from the move. We have two chess pieces that we can stand up and move around who offer some versatility. First we have Sam Hubbard who has shown he can kind of do it all this year. He has shown athleticism playing on special teams, FB, and rushing the passer from multiple positions. I think we can use him as a rusher as well as put him in coverage, and relative to other 3-4 OLBs he would probably excel at that. The other forgotten piece of this is Carl Lawson. While he won't offer as much in terms of coverage, when it comes to being a 3-4 OLB you really don't have to be great in coverage and there are ways to hide a single poor coverage OLB. I figure that Lawson would play the "Jack" linebacker and Hubbard the "Sam". With Hubbard and Lawson on the field along with our three down linemen we now have options to get creative with all our best pass rushers on the field at the same time.

Starters: Lawson, Hubbard
Back Ups: Will need veterans or draft picks

Inside Linebackers:

The other advantage to the move I believe is the talent needed to play inside linebacker in a 3-4 is slightly different. You can have a little less athletic linebackers inside because of the guys outside being up and able to play a bit more laterally than down linemen. I think Vigil could play the "Will" and control the backside using his ability to run down guys to his advantage being a bit more inside. The "Mike" position would require us to either draft someone or roll with Burfict one last time. I'd prefer to cut Burfict and draft a guy like White or Wilson in the first to take on this roll.

Starters: Rookie, Vigil
Back Ups: Evans, Nickerson

Overall the thing we gain is more pass rushing talent on the field at the same time. The other thing it let's us do is get a bit more creative moving guys around in the pre snap. I have always envied the disguising you can do in a 3-4 that isn't as easy to do with the 4-3. I would also be curious how much this would improve our run defense as a lot of the top run defenses in the league implement a 3-4.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(12-21-2018, 10:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have been considering the idea that, if by some miracle, we got a new coach would they move this defense to a 3-4? I actually think we have the personnel to do it, and it may actually suit us better.

D Line:

The obvious advantage here is we get to play Billings as more of his natural 0 technique heads up over a center. I think this is where he would shine. We then kick Atkins out to play DE, which for him won't be that much different then his current roll if we do it as a single gap scheme like an over front. The biggest change will be Dunlap who also will play DE but in a slightly different roll than he is used to as this new roll will put him more inside but with the advantage of being matched up against a guard. With Geno on the other side he will get single looks against the guard most often as the additional outside rusher will come from his side the majority of the time I'd guess.

Starters: Atkins, Billings, Dunlap
Back Ups: Willis, Tupou, TBD/Glasgow/Brown

Rush Linebackers/OLB:

This is where I think we get our advantage from the move. We have two chess pieces that we can stand up and move around who offer some versatility. First we have Sam Hubbard who has shown he can kind of do it all this year. He has shown athleticism playing on special teams, FB, and rushing the passer from multiple positions. I think we can use him as a rusher as well as put him in coverage, and relative to other 3-4 OLBs he would probably excel at that. The other forgotten piece of this is Carl Lawson. While he won't offer as much in terms of coverage, when it comes to being a 3-4 OLB you really don't have to be great in coverage and there are ways to hide a single poor coverage OLB. I figure that Lawson would play the "Jack" linebacker and Hubbard the "Sam". With Hubbard and Lawson on the field along with our three down linemen we now have options to get creative with all our best pass rushers on the field at the same time.

Starters: Lawson, Hubbard
Back Ups: Will need veterans or draft picks

Inside Linebackers:

The other advantage to the move I believe is the talent needed to play inside linebacker in a 3-4 is slightly different. You can have a little less athletic linebackers inside because of the guys outside being up and able to play a bit more laterally than down linemen. I think Vigil could play the "Will" and control the backside using his ability to run down guys to his advantage being a bit more inside. The "Mike" position would require us to either draft someone or roll with Burfict one last time. I'd prefer to cut Burfict and draft a guy like White or Wilson in the first to take on this roll.

Starters: Rookie, Vigil
Back Ups: Evans, Nickerson

Overall the thing we gain is more pass rushing talent on the field at the same time. The other thing it let's us do is get a bit more creative moving guys around in the pre snap. I have always envied the disguising you can do in a 3-4 that isn't as easy to do with the 4-3. I would also be curious how much this would improve our run defense as a lot of the top run defenses in the league implement a 3-4.

I agree....hadn't really thought about our personnel like that, but it could work.  I've wanted to switch it up for a while, but was concerned over whether we had the personnel or not.  The way you put it here, it looks like it could work much better than I thought.

Except for one piece......hell to the no on Nickerson.  I've seen enough.

[Interceptor]

Which LB would be the edge rusher?

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2018, 10:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have been considering the idea that, if by some miracle, we got a new coach would they move this defense to a 3-4? I actually think we have the personnel to do it, and it may actually suit us better.

D Line:

The obvious advantage here is we get to play Billings as more of his natural 0 technique heads up over a center. I think this is where he would shine. We then kick Atkins out to play DE, which for him won't be that much different then his current roll if we do it as a single gap scheme like an over front. The biggest change will be Dunlap who also will play DE but in a slightly different roll than he is used to as this new roll will put him more inside but with the advantage of being matched up against a guard. With Geno on the other side he will get single looks against the guard most often as the additional outside rusher will come from his side the majority of the time I'd guess.

Starters: Atkins, Billings, Dunlap
Back Ups: Willis, Tupou, TBD/Glasgow/Brown

Rush Linebackers/OLB:

This is where I think we get our advantage from the move. We have two chess pieces that we can stand up and move around who offer some versatility. First we have Sam Hubbard who has shown he can kind of do it all this year. He has shown athleticism playing on special teams, FB, and rushing the passer from multiple positions. I think we can use him as a rusher as well as put him in coverage, and relative to other 3-4 OLBs he would probably excel at that. The other forgotten piece of this is Carl Lawson. While he won't offer as much in terms of coverage, when it comes to being a 3-4 OLB you really don't have to be great in coverage and there are ways to hide a single poor coverage OLB. I figure that Lawson would play the "Jack" linebacker and Hubbard the "Sam". With Hubbard and Lawson on the field along with our three down linemen we now have options to get creative with all our best pass rushers on the field at the same time.

Starters: Lawson, Hubbard
Back Ups: Will need veterans or draft picks

Inside Linebackers:

The other advantage to the move I believe is the talent needed to play inside linebacker in a 3-4 is slightly different. You can have a little less athletic linebackers inside because of the guys outside being up and able to play a bit more laterally than down linemen. I think Vigil could play the "Will" and control the backside using his ability to run down guys to his advantage being a bit more inside. The "Mike" position would require us to either draft someone or roll with Burfict one last time. I'd prefer to cut Burfict and draft a guy like White or Wilson in the first to take on this roll.

Starters: Rookie, Vigil
Back Ups: Evans, Nickerson

Overall the thing we gain is more pass rushing talent on the field at the same time. The other thing it let's us do is get a bit more creative moving guys around in the pre snap. I have always envied the disguising you can do in a 3-4 that isn't as easy to do with the 4-3. I would also be curious how much this would improve our run defense as a lot of the top run defenses in the league implement a 3-4.

I think Willis fits better at 3-4 OLB than Hubbard does.
EDIT - When Willis came into the league, he was 255 lbs. Now he's 275 lbs. Perhaps he's added too much bulk and it's making him less effective as a pass rusher. But he's pretty fast for an edge rusher at 4.53 40 yard dash time. He also had a 6.85 3-cone and 4.28 20 yard shuttle, so he has some ability to change direction too, it isn't just straight-line.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 10:36 AM)ochocincos Wrote: I think Willis fits better at 3-4 OLB than Hubbard does.

Edit: Actually more I think about it sure, let's play Willis as the third OLB in rotation. He may have to take a little of the weight off he has added to be a DE though. I do think Hubbard needs to stay on the field though. He has coverage skills, that is something we will need.

[THE PISTONS]

You'd essentially negate Atkins by moving him to DE in a 3-4. He's a Top 2 pass rusher from the DI in the NFL...and you'd move him outside.

Plus, Lawson is a 1-dimensional pass rusher who is pretty bad against the run and in coverage. You'd be putting him on the field more in situations he wasn't suited for.

Hubbard has 3-4 potential.

Then our MLB's are pretty terrible.

What I think moving to the 3-4 does is negate our strength which is the defensive line and then make our weakness which is LB more pronounced.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

Still don't think we have the personnel for it at all; Dunlap's effectiveness will go down, while Geno's will stay the same and Billings is a wildcard in that scenario.

Then you go to the ILBs, Burfict and Brown, who are both slow and not that stellar in coverage.

Lawson is the only player that fits for the rush, maybe Willis. Hubbard is too big and we have no clue how he is in coverage; yes, he played S, but he was significantly smaller at that time.

Don't like it also from my own personal philosophy, as I've always been a 4-3 guy and either alignment has NEVER proven to be better than the other.

[*ochocincos*]

(12-21-2018, 11:07 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Still don't think we have the personnel for it at all; Dunlap's effectiveness will go down, while Geno's will stay the same and Billings is a wildcard in that scenario.

Then you go to the ILBs, Burfict and Brown, who are both slow and not that stellar in coverage.

Lawson is the only player that fits for the rush, maybe Willis. Hubbard is too big and we have no clue how he is in coverage; yes, he played S, but he was significantly smaller at that time.

Don't like it also from my own personal philosophy, as I've always been a 4-3 guy and either alignment has NEVER proven to be better than the other.

OP explicitly stated the ILBs would be Vigil and a rookie. Brown and Burfict would both be gone.

[Sled21]

MB is a 4/3 guy, so it isn't happening.....

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 11:07 AM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Still don't think we have the personnel for it at all; Dunlap's effectiveness will go down, while Geno's will stay the same and Billings is a wildcard in that scenario.

Then you go to the ILBs, Burfict and Brown, who are both slow and not that stellar in coverage.

Lawson is the only player that fits for the rush, maybe Willis. Hubbard is too big and we have no clue how he is in coverage; yes, he played S, but he was significantly smaller at that time.

Don't like it also from my own personal philosophy, as I've always been a 4-3 guy and either alignment has NEVER proven to be better than the other.

I don't think Dunlaps effectiveness goes down. I actually think his ability to swat passes goes up because of the throwing lane he ends up in with the move. He also will get one on one match ups on guards as the tackle will often times have to take the OLB.

As I said both are gone. In a 3-4 though slower LB's get away with it more so than in a 4-3, it's the only reason Donte Hightower had much of a career.

Hubbard isn't too big at all, 6'5 265 is perfect. He has dropped into coverage this year a couple times, in fact I remember one play where he was 30 yards down field on a HB. We have stood him up to rush from the inside a couple times as well. He has the athleticism which is why he is one of the deep blockers (used to be "wedge" blockers) on kick return as well as FB on goal line. 

As to your "proven" statement sure you can't prove anything. In terms of run defense though 7 of the top 10 this year are 3-4 defenses. I think it offers an interesting change for us because it can help disguise some of our lack of speed. 

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 11:17 AM)Sled21 Wrote: MB is a 4/3 guy, so it isn't happening.....

We have ran a 3-4 before lol

[Sled21]

(12-21-2018, 11:22 AM)Au165 Wrote: We have ran a 3-4 before lol

And we never went back to it....

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 11:23 AM)Sled21 Wrote: And we never went back to it....

We also never fired Marvin Lewis....This has already assumed we do one lol

[Sled21]

(12-21-2018, 11:24 AM)Au165 Wrote: We also never fired Marvin Lewis....This has already assumed we do one lol

Well, there's no point in debating what will happen, we won't know until it happens. But, I predict we stay in the 4-3 as long as Mike is picking coaches....

[Fullrock]

Hubbard is too slow to play the OLB spot in a 3-4. He ran a 4.95 40 at his pro day and chose not to run at the combine. Lawson has enough speed to play outside in a 3-4, but how does he come back after ACL surgery?

I just don't think the personnel is there to do it.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 11:50 AM)Fullrock Wrote: Hubbard is too slow to play the OLB spot in a 3-4. He ran a 4.95 40 at his pro day and chose not to run at the combine. Lawson has enough speed to play outside in a 3-4, but how does he come back after ACL surgery?

I just don't think the personnel is there to do it.

Not worried about the speed. They let him play coverage in camp and he ran with Joe Mixon down the sideline 30 yards. I said this in a draft thread, 40 times on linebackers aren't as important as people pretend they are. If a guy diagnoses a play a half second faster then it allows them to be in the right place. It's why Burfict used to be serviceable even with his horrible 40 time.

As for coming back form an ACL, Lawson came back from one in college just fine. 

[Fullrock]

(12-21-2018, 11:55 AM)Au165 Wrote: Not worried about the speed. They let him play coverage in camp and he ran with Joe Mixon down the sideline 30 yards. I said this in a draft thread, 40 times on linebackers aren't as important as people pretend they are. If a guy diagnoses a play a half second faster then it allows them to be in the right place. It's why Burfict used to be serviceable even with his horrible 40 time.

As for coming back form an ACL, Lawson came back from one in college just fine. 

I agree with you to an extent on the LB 40 times. Certainly an intelligent player who sniffs out plays quicker than others will allow the straight line speed to play up on the field some, BUT 4.95 is VERY slow for that spot in a 3-4.

Lawson did come back from the ACL tear in college, but his numbers dropped way off as he only played in 7 games the season following his surgery. That's an injury that can take some time to get back to pre-injury production.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 12:14 PM)Fullrock Wrote: I agree with you to an extent on the LB 40 times. Certainly an intelligent player who sniffs out plays quicker than others will allow the straight line speed to play up on the field some, BUT 4.95 is VERY slow for that spot in a 3-4.

Lawson did come back from the ACL tear in college, but his numbers dropped way off as he only played in 7 games the season following his surgery. That's an injury that can take some time to get back to pre-injury production.

It's slow, but when football is ran from track starting blocks and linebackers get to start hip to hip with HB's instead of down hill I'll worry about it. Lb's tend to get a cushion in terms of where the offense is heading so if they react well enough it nullifies the speed. Especially when you realize a OLB in a 3-4 is normally going to get a back coming out of the backfield or a TE You realize it's not that big a deal.  Side note, Austin did run some 3-4 in a preseason game and had him playing OLB during it. Kind of interesting, I'll see if I can find the tape on it. 

No one could have imagined the kid would be this productive as a rookie 3rd rounder but here we are. It seems like he is one of those guys where the numbers just don't do him justice. 

[Sled21]

(12-21-2018, 11:55 AM)Au165 Wrote: As for coming back form an ACL, Lawson came back from one in college just fine. 

So now he's on 2 repaired knees.... wonderful.

[Au165]

(12-21-2018, 12:44 PM)Sled21 Wrote: So now he's on 2 repaired knees.... wonderful.

ACL's aren't really a big deal anymore. He won't be perfect by season opening next year but by mid year he should be pretty set.