Let’s Talk About Throwing Deep

[Fan_in_Kettering]

The Bengals can’t throw deep and here’s why: There’s not enough time.

Next time you watch a Bengals game, take notice of how long it takes for a wide receiver to arrive at the spot 40 yards down the field where the ball will arrive; it’s usually about 5 to 6 seconds allowing for a “bump” from the opposing cornerback.

Now grab your mobile phone and use the stopwatch feature to time the quarterback. Depending on the trajectory the 40 yard pass has to be thrown 3 to 4 seconds ahead of the receiver’s anticipated time to arrive at the point where the ball will drop which means a quarterback needs to release the ball 2 to 3 seconds after receiving the snap.

This is the ideal case where the receiver going 40 yards is the quarterback’s only option on the play. If he’s not first in the list of progressions, then the play may extend much longer than six seconds.

Can the Cincinnati offensive line keep a quarterback clean with open throwing lanes for 6 seconds? Use your stopwatch and you’ll find Andy Dalton or Jeff Driskel running for their lives about two or three seconds after the snap. By then the routes have broken down and finding an open receiver is a total crapshoot.

[SunsetBengal]

In 2015, Andy Dalton's average release time was 2.07 seconds. Second only to Tom Brady at 2.01 seconds. You really can't get rid of a ball much faster than that, folks.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/13867766/andy-dalton-playing-faster-ever-leading-undefeated-cincinnati-bengals-nfl

And, you're absolutely correct, Fan_In_Kettering. Andy is far from being "the problem", and he has never really been, "the problem". The problem is, and has always been keeping pressure out of his face.

I made a similar thread on this topic, a couple seasons ago, titled ".5 seconds". That half a second in extra protection could, and most likely would elevate Andy Dalton from being considered a middle of the pack QB, and put him in that upper tier of "elite" QBs in the NFL. I said it then, and I stand by that statement today.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2018, 07:18 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: In 2015, Andy Dalton's average release time was 2.07 seconds.  Second only to Tom Brady at 2.01 seconds.  You really can't get rid of a ball much faster than that, folks.

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/13867766/andy-dalton-playing-faster-ever-leading-undefeated-cincinnati-bengals-nfl

And, you're absolutely correct, Fan_In_Kettering.  Andy is far from being "the problem", and he has never really been, "the problem".  The problem is, and has always been keeping pressure out of his face.  

I made a similar thread on this topic, a couple seasons ago, titled ".5 seconds".  That half a second in extra protection could, and most likely would elevate Andy Dalton from being considered a middle of the pack QB, and put him in that upper tier of "elite" QBs in the NFL.  I said it then, and I stand by that statement today.

That 1/2 second is a lifetime in the pocket !

And that's the thing that's so frustrating. The Bengals have mishandled, under valued, and totally F'd up the Oline over the last several seasons and it shows in the record. They finally tried to put a bandaid on it this year but it wasn't nearly enough.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

True, true, knew this for a bit i just hope we go all in on the O-line this year to just finally get it shored up.

I think Price can be that stud Center for us eventually so that is nice. We have a decent Guard in Boling.

But we need to bring back Andre Smith, hopefully grab another decent G/T in FA and another in the Draft early.

[McC]

Throwing deep. Is that where you pitch it out of bounds or five yards over the wide open John Ross's head and then blame him for quitting on routes? I've seen that play attempted, still waiting to see it work.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2018, 07:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: True, true, knew this for a bit i just hope we go all in on the O-line this year to just finally get it shored up.

I think Price can be that stud Center for us eventually so that is nice. We have a decent Guard in Boling.

But we need to bring back Andre Smith, hopefully grab another decent G/T in FA and another in the Draft early.

Agreed, they have to take the Oline seriously this offseason.

[McC]

(12-29-2018, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agreed, they have to take the Oline seriously this offseason.

Fast forward one year from today, we'll still be saying this exact same thing.

[*bengalfan74*]

(12-29-2018, 08:34 PM)McC Wrote: Fast forward one year from today, we'll still be saying this exact same thing.

Sad isn't it ? 

[bengalhoel]

(12-29-2018, 08:26 PM)McC Wrote: Throwing deep.  Is that where you pitch it out of bounds or five yards over the wide open John Ross's head and then blame him for quitting on routes?  I've seen that play attempted, still waiting to see it work.

Oh my God I dread the sideline deep ball with Andy. I like him as a QB but this throw kills us. It make it even worse when Erickson is playing because he runs his routes out of bounds.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-29-2018, 08:58 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: Oh my God I dread the sideline deep ball with Andy. I like him as a QB but this throw kills us. It make it even worse when Erickson is playing because he runs his routes out of bounds.

Really?

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/4/2/17188798/andy-dalton-is-a-better-deep-ball-passer-than-you-realize

He can't be the entire team, at the same time..

[bengalhoel]

(12-29-2018, 09:04 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Really?

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2018/4/2/17188798/andy-dalton-is-a-better-deep-ball-passer-than-you-realize

He can't be the entire team, at the same time..

I said the sideline deep ball. I saw no where in this article where it said anything that disproved that. I think he is great throwing the ball down the middle but when the WR runs right down the sideline the ball sails out of bounds way too damn much. Plus this rating takes into account that he is not making mistakes when throwing downfield. Its hard to get an Int when you throw it 5 yards out of bounds.

[BengalChris]

Hum, yeah, well, the Bengals suck in more ways than the deep ball. We've seen just how much value Mike Brown places on good offensive linemen and it isn't very much when you look at the contract extension he's given them. The team didn't even bother to offer Zietler a deal and low balled Whit, and both these guys are playing better than our best linemen.

All of the failings of this team can be traced directly to Mike Brown by either his inaction when action is called for or his insane actions when clearly better options are there to be done. Winning is of distant importance when compared to Mikey's mental comfort.

When I read Mike Brown being quoted that he and Marvin agree more often than not on football things I absolutely cringe because it tells me that Marvin knows far less than I've given him credit for.

I fully expect another change over in coordinators, cause the problem just can't be Marvin Lewis, so it must be everyone else. It's like Mikey grading Mikey, he's top notch in his own mind and everyone else is wrong.

What exactly are the chances that this team regroups again next year with new coordinators and some position coaches suddenly beats  Pittsburgh? Or NE, who we play next year? Or the Rams, who we play next year? Or Seattle? Or, God forbid we lose to the Browns twice again?

When I look to the future of this team for next season I see another playoff-less vomit fest.

The easy, and lazy, analysis of the 2018 season is that injuries ruined the season. But when we look back, before AJ Green went down, the Bengals were blown out by the top teams it faced in KC and NO. After AJ Green went down the team was blown out by average teams and it didn't matter if it was Andy Dalton at QB or whoever that guy is in there now (I actually forget his name).

What exactly is this team going to do this off season so that it has a chance to beat the top teams in the league?

I'll answer this now. Whatever they do there's a 99% chance that it won't be enough right things and there will be enough wrong things to ensure whatever right things were done are counteracted. I can say this because in the 26 years since Mike Brown inherited the team and named himself GM he has, 100% of the time, been more wrong than right, and given his absolute certainty that he knows what he's doing there's 0% chance that he realizes he's the guy that needs to go.

That's how I feel about this front office as led by Mike Brown. In my eyes Paul Brown's biggest failure was Mike Brown. Sad really.

[CornerBlitz]

I know that offensive line is an issue this season but i can't tell you how many times I've seen a wide open AJ Green streaking down the field only for the throw to be out of bounds or not thrown far enough. It is highly annoying.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-29-2018, 11:01 PM)bengalhoel Wrote: I said the sideline deep ball. I saw no where in this article where it said anything that disproved that. I think he is great throwing the ball down the middle but when the WR runs right down the sideline the ball sails out of bounds way too damn much. Plus this rating takes into account that he is not making mistakes when throwing downfield. Its hard to get an Int when you throw it 5 yards out of bounds.

Gah, I think that no matter what anyone puts in front of you that disproves your opinion, you'll continue to change the goal to something different.  I don't know that I'll continue to respond to your posts..

[bengalhoel]

(12-30-2018, 01:56 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Gah, I think that no matter what anyone puts in front of you that disproves your opinion, you'll continue to change the goal to something different.  I don't know that I'll continue to respond to your posts..

Jesus, every time you criticize someone around here you are against them. I like Andy Dalton and I support him when people around here bash him consistently. The article says "Andy Dalton is better at the deep throws than you think". Throws being the key word there because there are multiple of them. Down the seam , Go routes etc...  

All I was saying was that when a WR streaks down the sideline, Andy has a tendency to float the ball out of bounds. I again, do not go to PFF , I just rely on what I see. I have watched every game that Andy Dalton has played and it sticks out to me. If you find stats to specifically debunk that , I will apologize and say you are right.

Anyway, I look at it as two Bengals fans discussing something and I dont take it personally. If you dont respond to my posts, I respect that but I am here for the same reason you are and I dont try to offend anyone. 

[*rfaulk34*]

(12-29-2018, 05:25 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The Bengals can’t throw deep and here’s why:  There’s not enough time.

Next time you watch a Bengals game, take notice of how long it takes for a wide receiver to arrive at the spot 40 yards down the field where the ball will arrive; it’s usually about 5 to 6 seconds allowing for a “bump” from the opposing cornerback.

Now grab your mobile phone and use the stopwatch feature to time the quarterback.  Depending on the trajectory the 40 yard pass has to be thrown 3 to 4 seconds ahead of the receiver’s anticipated time to arrive at the point where the ball will drop which means a quarterback needs to release the ball 2 to 3 seconds after receiving the snap.

This is the ideal case where the receiver going 40 yards is the quarterback’s only option on the play.  If he’s not first in the list of progressions, then the play may extend much longer than six seconds.

Can the Cincinnati offensive line keep a quarterback clean with open throwing lanes for 6 seconds?  Use your stopwatch and you’ll find Andy Dalton or Jeff Driskel running for their lives about two or three seconds after the snap.  By then the routes have broken down and finding an open receiver is a total crapshoot.

No. Stop it. It only takes 2.5 to 3 seconds to release the ball and have it travel 40+ yards down field. An average WR would run a 4.5 second 40. An average QB can release the ball at 2.5 seconds, and when you combine the time it takes the ball to travel in the air, it would arrive at a spot 40-50 yards down field at the same time an average WR would get there. 

[impactplaya]

the Bengals have yet to.complete a pass over 50 yds in the air this year. that in itself is disturbing.
even AJ Green before his injury did not have a catch over 50 yds. same for John Ross. you have to go back to Warricks rookie year to find a deep passing so pathetic.
if memory serves me I didnt see alot of play action from Lazor this year. and I didnt see alot of routes run by the WRs that would make a cb get left standing flat footed.

[Daddy-O]

(12-30-2018, 07:03 AM)rfaulk34 Wrote: No. Stop it. It only takes 2.5 to 3 seconds to release the ball and have it travel 40+ yards down field. An average WR would run a 4.5 second 40. An average QB can release the ball at 2.5 seconds, and when you combine the time it takes the ball to travel in the air, it would arrive at a spot 40-50 yards down field at the same time an average WR would get there. 

Quite possibly one of the worst counterpoints I've read on these boards.  A WR very rarely runs a 4.5 second 40 in game conditions - he'd have to be totally uncovered.  WR's are either bumped at the line or have to redirect their routes on go patterns.  A 40-yard dash is just that, a straight line dash from one point to another.  A pattern is never a straight point A to B.  Just a silly counterpoint.

[SunsetBengal]

(12-30-2018, 04:28 AM)bengalhoel Wrote: Jesus, every time you criticize someone around here you are against them. I like Andy Dalton and I support him when people around here bash him consistently. The article says "Andy Dalton is better at the deep throws than you think". Throws being the key word there because there are multiple of them. Down the seam , Go routes etc...  

All I was saying was that when a WR streaks down the sideline, Andy has a tendency to float the ball out of bounds. I again, do not go to PFF , I just rely on what I see. I have watched every game that Andy Dalton has played and it sticks out to me. If you find stats to specifically debunk that , I will apologize and say you are right.

Anyway, I look at it as two Bengals fans discussing something and I dont take it personally. If you dont respond to my posts, I respect that but I am here for the same reason you are and I dont try to offend anyone. 

Alright, let me say this.  Andy tries to put the ball where only the receiver has a chance of catching it, right between the receiver and the sideline.  Sometimes balls drift just a bit, and get a bit too far out of bounds.  Would you rather see those ball drifting a couple yards toward the field, where the defense has a better chance of getting their hands on it?

I don't know how you see it, but incomplete is much better than intercepted, in my opinion.  

[fredtoast]

(12-29-2018, 08:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agreed, they have to take the Oline seriously this offseason.

(12-29-2018, 08:34 PM)McC Wrote: Fast forward one year from today, we'll still be saying this exact same thing.

(12-29-2018, 08:48 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Sad isn't it ? 

Bengals value the O-line and take it very seriously.  They use first round picks on the O-line on a regular basis and last year they traded for Glenn.

The problem is not how much they valua the line.  the problem is in player evaluation.