QB Index by Gregg Rosenthal
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QB Index by Gregg Rosenthal
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09-11-2015, 07:41 AM
Custom dictates that you lose me at 'Gregg Rosenthal'.
I happily adhere to that custom.
Our father, who art in Hell
Unhallowed, be thy name Cursed be thy sons and daughters Of our nemesis who are to blame Thy kingdom come, Nema 
09-11-2015, 07:55 AM
(09-11-2015, 07:33 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Why are people shitting on Flacco for his first few years when he has clearly been amazing in the postseason since then? Well that's only because Dalton has good regular season stats too. Flacco has had good playoff games last year, and a great run a couple of years ago, but let's not fool ourselves here. Flacco only had above 25 TDs once in his 7 year career. Flacco has never had more than 4000 yards once in his career, and Flacco has had more INTs than TDs one year. Personally just because Flacco had an amazing run in the playoffs one year doesn't make him better than other QBs. ![[Image: 4CV0TeR.png]](https://i.imgur.com/4CV0TeR.png) 
09-11-2015, 08:43 AM
(09-11-2015, 07:41 AM)BigPapaKain Wrote: Custom dictates that you lose me at 'Gregg Rosenthal'. Yeah, I always get a lot of "Rosenthal is an idiot", "he's a Steelers homer", etc. when I post these, but it usually turns out to be quite a bit of debate and not just about Andy either. I'm not the biggest fan in the world of his lists, and I don't even know a lot about Rosenthal to begin with, he just happens to be one of the only guys on a major network that puts out QB rankings regularly. (09-11-2015, 07:55 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Well that's only because Dalton has good regular season stats too. Flacco has had good playoff games last year, and a great run a couple of years ago, but let's not fool ourselves here. Flacco only had above 25 TDs once in his 7 year career. Flacco has never had more than 4000 yards once in his career, and Flacco has had more INTs than TDs one year. Personally just because Flacco had an amazing run in the playoffs one year doesn't make him better than other QBs. It's not just one year though. The Ravens have missed the playoffs one time since Flacco has been QB of the team. I completely understand that they had a great run game and defense in the past, and it's not like Flacco led them there by himself. Is it a coincidence that the only year they missed the playoffs was when Flacco had a terrible season though? I think that must say something, even if it doesn't mean a whole lot. Let's not pretend his regular seasons have been awful either. He threw for 14 yards under 4,000 last year and he just had 27 passing TDs (29 total) in that same year. Shouldn't the most recent year be pretty important in current rankings? Since 2010 in the playoffs, Joe is 196/327 with 2,563 yards, and a 24/4 TD/INT ratio. His Super Bowl run didn't skew these numbers either, in the 10 games included, he only had 1 bad game out of all of them. These were games played with the bright lights on against playoff teams. If you want to talk about regular season volume stats, here they are for both of their careers... Joe - 3,647 yards, 21.14 TDs, 12.85 INTs Andy - 3,689 yards, 24.75 TDs, 16.5 INTs Are those numbers really so far off that you can't give Flacco the edge for what he's done when it really counts since 2010? I dunno man, I don't think you're being too fair about this. You're bashing Flacco for "just one year" (even though he's done it more than one), while you're essentially anointing Andy higher than him for having ONE good year himself and we all know that Andy hasn't been great in the playoffs in his entire career. That could change, and Andy could be a top 5 QB in the league for all we know, I'm not going to pretend that it's impossible for him to improve, I'm actually on record saying that I think the guy has a career year in 2015. As of right now, with everything considered, I can't see how anybody can say with a straight face that Andy Dalton deserves a higher ranking than Joe Flacco.
09-11-2015, 08:54 AM
(09-11-2015, 08:43 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Yeah, I always get a lot of "Rosenthal is an idiot", "he's a Steelers homer", etc. when I post these, but it usually turns out to be quite a bit of debate and not just about Andy either. I'm not the biggest fan in the world of his lists, and I don't even know a lot about Rosenthal to begin with, he just happens to be one of the only guys on a major network that puts out QB rankings regularly. Joe Flacco won't have a good year this year. The only reason why he was able to have such a good year last year was because of his OC. Kubiak had the Ravens run game going last year, and that helped Flacco with passing the ball, because Flacco is a game manager. Now he has a new OC you will see a huge decline in his game. Flacco had one decent game in his first 8 playoff games, and then in 2012 he's been great in the playoffs. I just don't see Flacco who is normally a game manager being that great. We all know that the stats Dalton had last year was a fluke due to him having weapons that easily ranked in the bottom half of the league. Green wasn't 100% most of the year last year, and Sanu is a joke as a #2 receiver. When Dalton has had actual weapons he's shown that he can produce better stats than Flacco.
09-11-2015, 09:01 AM
(09-11-2015, 08:54 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Joe Flacco won't have a good year this year. The only reason why he was able to have such a good year last year was because of his OC. Kubiak had the Ravens run game going last year, and that helped Flacco with passing the ball, because Flacco is a game manager. Now he has a new OC you will see a huge decline in his game. Flacco had one decent game in his first 8 playoff games, and then in 2012 he's been great in the playoffs. I just don't see Flacco who is normally a game manager being that great. You're just talking in a bunch of hypotheticals and such though. I'm okay with ignoring Andy's 2014 because of all the injuries, that's fine, I honestly don't even care at this point. At the end of the day, you have NO idea how he honestly would have played if they didn't happen though, none of us know that, so we have to go by what happened. Andy had a good start and then shit hit the fan, but he had an okay year with everything considered. Dalton had one year that he "proved" that, and I'm not ready to ignore Flacco having 5-6 average to solid seasons along with 4 great postseasons just because of what Andy did 1 time in the regular season and 0 times in the playoffs. This isn't about what they could hypothetically do, it's about what they have done and are doing. It has been since 2010 with Flacco by the way, I don't know why you keep saying 2012 only. 2010, 2011, 2012, and 2014. That's 4 years, and there has been NO other QB in the league in that timespan that has been as good as Joe in the playoffs. I hate Flacco, but I'm not going to just close my eyes to his accomplishments. He's one of my least favorite QBs in the league, I hate his face and his "hey, let's throw a deep ball with my rocket arm just to fish for DPI calls all year" bullshit. I'm just sayin' man, if you can look at everything I just posted in the above and the other post and still try to tell me that Andy Dalton deserves to be higher than Joe Flacco, there's something seriously biased going on in your evaluation. I'm all for moving Andy up a few spots, no issue there, but there's no possible way that he should be higher than Joe. Not a chance. 
09-11-2015, 09:03 AM
(09-10-2015, 05:56 PM)jj22 Wrote: Gregg has never been a fan of Daltons (not that he has many). The Matt Ryan love is baffling.
09-11-2015, 09:13 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:01 AM)djs7685 Wrote: You're just talking in a bunch of hypotheticals and such though. Joe Flacco had one decent playoff game in 2010, and in 2011 he did good against the Patriots 31st ranked defense.... 2012 and 2014 were the only years he did great. 2012 and 2014 he averaged 282 yards, almost 3 TDs, and only .33 INTs per game. He's played good the last few years, but let's not add in 2010, and 2011 when he didn't even play great. He was mediocre those years. FWIW Anquan Boldin, Torrey Smith, Ray Rice, Dennis Pitta, and Jacoby Jones are leaps and bounds better than what we have ever had with Dalton.
09-11-2015, 09:18 AM
(09-10-2015, 05:56 PM)jj22 Wrote: Gregg has never been a fan of Daltons (not that he has many). I don't know about him being #5 exactly, but some of the ass backwards logic around here astounds me. Andy loses 2 guys that a lot of people around here refuse to give much credit to, constantly reminding everyone they're "unproven" and can't be considered good yet....but somehow it's a huge deal and the end of the world that caused his stats to crumble? HE made the playoffs despite that...GTFO with that garbage, teams make the playoffs, not QBs. Matt Ryan loses some of the better receivers in the entire NFL, and we poke fun at him for his TEAM going 4-12? Again, QBs don't make the playoffs, teams do. That year that Matt Ryan "lost all his weapons", he threw for over 4,500 yards, 26 TDs, completed 67% of his passes, and had a higher passer rating than everyone but 11 other guys and it also happened to be higher than any season in Andy's career. He did that with an ancient Tony Gonazlez, a broken Roddy White, and Harry freakin' Douglas leading the team in basically everything. Sure, let's poo-poo on Matt Ryan because of that  If you can't understand that their 4-12 season had more to do with having a bottom 5 defense and their lead rushers not being able to get over 3.5 YPC, then hey, that's on you for not understanding how to evaluate things other than taking an extremely broad view of the game.
09-11-2015, 09:24 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:18 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't know about him being #5 exactly, but some of the ass backwards logic around here astounds me. Personally I'm a big fan of Matt Ryan, and I agree with you on that, but Dalton didn't have even close to the weapons Ryan had that year. Green wasn't 100% last year, and didn't even catch a pass in 5 games. Our #2 receiver had the highest drop % in the league (with at least 50 receptions). The #3 receiver (Gresham) has had 6 fumbles the last 2 years, and always has costly penalties. Not to mention there has been multiple times where he causes INTs due to him stopping on routes, or times he just can't catch easy passes in the end zone.
09-11-2015, 09:24 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:13 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Joe Flacco had one decent playoff game in 2010, and in 2011 he did good against the Patriots 31st ranked defense.... 2012 and 2014 were the only years he did great. 2012 and 2014 he averaged 282 yards, almost 3 TDs, and only .33 INTs per game. He's played good the last few years, but let's not add in 2010, and 2011 when he didn't even play great. He was mediocre those years. FWIW Anquan Boldin, Torrey Smith, Ray Rice, Dennis Pitta, and Jacoby Jones are leaps and bounds better than what we have ever had with Dalton. Since when does a defense ranking mean that he didn't have a great game?! I'm 100% sure you don't play that way for Andy as well, do you? I'll keep that in mind in the future if you'd like. He had 1 bad game out of the last 10 playoff games, you can try and twist and turn anyway that you'd like, but it doesn't change that fact. Boldin, Smith, Rice, Pitta, and Jones are absolutely good. Plenty of elite QBs have had good teams around them, but it doesn't make them less elite. I don't know what that should change with Flacco having other good players around him. He's good too. I'd argue that our 2013 weapons and 2015 weapons are equal to or better than what you listed, but it doesn't matter either way because Joe is still more deserving of a high spot than Andy. I don't know why you're still arguing this. Joe Flacco deserves to be higher on a QB ranking list than Andy Dalton right now. There's no reason to keep this going. It isn't debatable. Joe > Andy right now with what they've done in their respective careers. If Andy had Joe's resume you'd be happier than a pig in shit being able to rub his playoff performances in everyone's face, and don't even act like you wouldn't.
09-11-2015, 09:28 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:24 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Personally I'm a big fan of Matt Ryan, and I agree with you on that, but Dalton didn't have even close to the weapons Ryan had that year. Green wasn't 100% last year, and didn't even catch a pass in 5 games. Our #2 receiver had the highest drop % in the league (with at least 50 receptions). The #3 receiver (Gresham) has had 6 fumbles the last 2 years, and always has costly penalties. Not to mention there has been multiple times where he causes INTs due to him stopping on routes, or times he just can't catch easy passes in the end zone. I wasn't trying to shit on Andy for his 2014, but I just brought him up because of jj's logic he was using in his post. I've said before that I cut Andy slack for what happened with the receivers in 2014. Andy did have Hill and Gio though, Ryan had to deal with old man Steven Jackson and Jacquizz Rodgers trying to see who can suck more over the course of a full season. Ryan lost Julio more than Andy lost A.J., and Roddy White was broken over the season but he did play a decent amount. Ryan had Gonzalez but he was 50 at the time. I dunno, I think it's close, but it doesn't matter because I wasn't trying to hold anything against Andy with my comments, I was defending Matt Ryan more than anything.
09-11-2015, 09:33 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:24 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Since when does a defense ranking mean that he didn't have a great game?! I'm 100% sure you don't play that way for Andy as well, do you? I'll keep that in mind in the future if you'd like. The only bad defense Dalton has played in the playoffs has been the Colts, but when you have the weapons that he had it really doesn't matter. The Chargers were 11th in points allowed in 2013, The Texans were a top 10 defense in 2012, and were ranked 2nd in points allowed in 2011. I would say Boldin, Smith, Rice, Pitta, and Jones are better weapons than what we had in 2013, and arguably better than what we have now.
09-11-2015, 09:35 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:28 AM)djs7685 Wrote: I wasn't trying to shit on Andy for his 2014, but I just brought him up because of jj's logic he was using in his post. Hill really didn't get any signifigant touches until week 9. Off the top of my head I think he averaged to about 7 touches a game until week 9. Gio is great, but he's not really a RB that should be the #1. Don't get me wrong I love Gio, but he's just not a #1 back. 
09-11-2015, 09:39 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:01 AM)djs7685 Wrote: You're just talking in a bunch of hypotheticals and such though. I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you love to compare QB's who have played 6 or 7 years in the NFL or more to AD who has played 4 years in the NFL. By your own admission, if you compare AD years 1 to 4 to Flacco (apples to apples), they are very similar with the slight edge going to AD overall in my opinion. We can't compare AD yet in years 5 and beyond fairly. It is all hypothetical right now. Once you factor in later years and Joe's Super Bowl run, he gets the edge in my opinion overall and a wide margin strictly in the playoffs (AD has the slight advantage in the regular season which is important as it could be argued AD did more to get his team into the playoffs in a one on one match up against Flacco. The facts are all there and AD has to play better in the playoffs (also rest of team) and now in year 5, youth or inexperience or no longer an excuse. 2014 was a weird abnormality as most QB's or teams don't lose their #2 and #3 for most of the year and then also have their #1 miss almost 6 games of playing time. So, it is not an excuse, but I want to see how AD does in 2015 hopefully with his weapons more in tact as normal (some injuries are normal, but losing your top 3 in a playoff game) so we can see if he progresses or he has peaked.
09-11-2015, 09:52 AM
(09-11-2015, 09:39 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but you love to compare QB's who have played 6 or 7 years in the NFL or more to AD who has played 4 years in the NFL. By your own admission, if you compare AD years 1 to 4 to Flacco (apples to apples), they are very similar with the slight edge going to AD overall in my opinion. When you're talking about QB rankings, you don't say "well let's compare them all by their first 4 years!". With that logic, it's only "apples to apples" if you use Andy's rookie season because otherwise it's not fair to Bortles, Bridgewater, and Carr. That doesn't make any sense at all, so instead we're going to talk about careers and most recent accomplishments when talking about QB rankings. I do love to compare QBs who have played 6+ years to young QBs, because guess what? Those are Andy's peers. Those are Blake Bortle's peers. Those are Ryan Tannehill's peers. It's entirely irrelevant to compare what Blake Bortles did in 2015 to what Tom Brady did in 2001. It's actually NOT apples to apples to compare their first X years only. It makes the most sense when talking about QB rankings to compare them to their peers, which is exactly what a ranking system is doing. I find it hilarious that Bengals fans think it's only "fair" and "apples to apples" to compare exactly the first 4 years of a career as if that makes any sense whatsoever in this type of discussion. Forget that other guys have played less than 4 years and it doesn't make any sense to begin with. Save that for the people who are dumb enough to go along with that shit logic. This is a QB ranking thread, not a "Who had a better first 4 years?" thread.
09-11-2015, 10:01 AM
My last response came off a bit unpleasant, so my bad and I don't feel like going back through and cleaning it up.
Regardless, my point stands and it's still super annoying to hear the old "it's only apples to apples to compare their early careers!!!!!!" nonsense from part of this fanbase. For some reason, people are insisting that it makes sense even though it is quite the opposite if you actually think about everything that goes into a comparison like this for athletes. If we were using batshit logic like this, QB rankings would be all over the place with a lot of the elite guys being nowhere near the top. Let's leave it at the fact that Andy can improve and that we need to compare Andy in 2015 to other QBs in 2015 and not worry about their pasts once this year finally kicks off for us on Sunday.
09-11-2015, 10:09 AM
It's the NFL and it's a 'what have you done for me recently' league.
That's why Rodgers is at the top; he was the MVP last season. It's also why Dalton should be near the bottom; he was awful. The problem with Rosenthal is that he's still hung up on Dalton's pre-draft analysis and first round exits from the playoffs, paying no mind to the fact that Dalton has proven he has a NFL QB's arm and can make all the throws and that he's not exactly had a lot of help in January (barring San Diego but especially this last one). That's why his lists and his articles are shit and don't warrant discussion insofar as it applies to Dalton. At least that's my opinion on the matter.
Our father, who art in Hell
Unhallowed, be thy name Cursed be thy sons and daughters Of our nemesis who are to blame Thy kingdom come, Nema 
09-11-2015, 10:16 AM
(09-11-2015, 10:01 AM)djs7685 Wrote: My last response came off a bit unpleasant, so my bad and I don't feel like going back through and cleaning it up. Compare their recent careers. Recently, Dalton didn't have a 73.1 QB rating for a season and his team missed the playoffs. Where's the consistency?
09-11-2015, 10:22 AM
(09-11-2015, 10:16 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Compare their recent careers. Recently, Dalton didn't have a 73.1 QB rating for a season and his team missed the playoffs. You can pretend that I never mentioned that he had a bad season, and you can pretend that I didn't point out that his most recent accomplishment was bouncing back from a bad season and also keeping up his great playoff streak. Pretend away, my man. Why do you just randomly show up in the middle of discussions and throw out something that's a complete lie? It's quite obnoxious. I guess that's what happens when you're one of the guys that think it's only "fair" to compare their first 4 years, which is completely stupid and the most ridiculous logic I've heard in my life. 
09-11-2015, 10:34 AM
(09-10-2015, 05:54 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: I think this would be a better choice of section names and rankings for the QBs I think this pretty much nailed it. Dalton gets a C because of a "down year" last year, but many of the QBs ranked above him had multiple down years. If Andy does what I believe he will do this year, he moves his grade to a "B" and slots below Stafford and Ryan. |
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