No More Marvin Loyalty Means Whole New Look

[McC]

(01-23-2019, 11:44 AM)HuDey Wrote: I absolutely without a doubt and no regrets would. What is the difference between next year with Dalton under center and next year with a Fitzpatrick type? Either way the Cincinnati Bengals will be an also-rans.

What exactly would Coach Taylor be throwing away?...a shot to flirt with .500?...This team is not fixable in one offseason, it will take two or more depending on whether they can acquire the right pieces and how quickly and well they can develop thier draft choices. The best way to a championship is great coaching and great QB play. We are taking a chance on finding one of those things, why not take a chance on finding the other?

Sorry, but I can't agree with any of this.  Playing a last place schedule.  Fill two holes in FA.  Fill two holes in the draft.  Now you're ready to make a run.  And your long suffering fans don't have to suffer more watching Fitz.

If the draft falls the right way, take the QB.  But let him learn behind Dalton, who is not going anywhere just yet anyway.

I promise you, Bengal fans would never be able to stomach a year of Fitz.  That is a dead set certainty.  The FO is trying to put butts back in the seats, not chase all the rest of them away.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 11:06 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Why would you be willing to just throw away all the chemistry AD has built with AJ and the rest of the team and been to the playoffs 5 times to suffer thru mediocre QB A or B for a year...or two until we can get a new guy on board ?

Look if we could draft P. Manning or A. Luck or even T. Lawrence this season I'd be all for dumping AD for picks.

Haskins is the only QB in this draft I'd even consider that for and he is a bit of a project that may not pan out ? I think he will but with all the other issues on this team it's a very big risk !

Stick with AD and see how it goes the QB's coming up are just better.

I’m not saying we have to draft a QB THIS year, but it needs to happen soon and it will probably require the trading of Dalton for picks to put us in position to get the right guy. As for the chemistry that you spoke of, where has that gotten us?...an early exit from the playoffs is not what I hope that Bengals management is striving for. I want this team to be all in on this rebuild. I want a totally new culture here and the coaching changes are a great start but the QB is also huge in driving that culture and I just don’t believe that a guy hand picked and trained under Marvin Lewis is right to lead us into a new era.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 11:24 AM)fredtoast Wrote: You would mind if he was a bridge to Jake Locker, Blaine Gabbert, E J Manuel or any of the other first round flops.

People act like it would be easy to just trade away Dalton and draft a better QB.  But that is harder than it sounds.

I get that. I understand the risk. I am also not interested in spending eternity in that little safe zone where we are decent but have no chance to compete with the big boys. We have lived there for years and unless you want to put all of the Lewis era failures on the coaching staff, then maybe we should consider changing some on-field leaders as well as those on the sidelines.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 12:16 PM)HuDey Wrote:  I am also not interested in spending eternity in that little safe zone where we are decent but have no chance to compete with the big boys. 

Dalton has played at an elite level.  He has posted a 106 passer rating for a season.

Dalton has also beaten the following QBs head-to-head when they had Division Champion teams...Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning (the good '14 PM not the '15 garbage), and Andrew Luck.

It is absurd to claim that Dalton does not give us a chance to compete with the big boys.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 12:05 PM)HuDey Wrote:  I just don’t believe that a guy hand picked and trained under Marvin Lewis is right to lead us into a new era.

https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-rams-line-whitworth-20171006-story.html

"Andrew Whitworth's leadership sparks turnaround for Rams' offensive line"

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has played at an elite level.  He has posted a 106 passer rating for a season.

Dalton has also beaten the following QBs head-to-head when they had Division Champion teams...Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning (the good '14 PM not the '15 garbage), and Andrew Luck.

It is absurd to claim that Dalton does not give us a chance to compete with the big boys.

It is not absurd considering the performance of the offense in the postseason. They simply did not score many points at all. How much of the blame for that would you put on the coaching staff? How much on the players?....I believe both deserve a considerable amount of the blame, hence why I don’t want to stand pat with Dalton.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 01:28 PM)HuDey Wrote: It is not absurd considering the performance of the offense in the postseason. They simply did not score many points at all. How much of the blame for that would you put on the coaching staff? How much on the players?....I believe both deserve a considerable amount of the blame, hence why I don’t want to stand pat with Dalton.

In 2017 our offense was dead last in the league with Green, Bernard, Boyd, and Mixon.

So you want to get rid of all those guys also?

[BengalChris]

(01-23-2019, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has played at an elite level.  He has posted a 106 passer rating for a season.

Dalton has also beaten the following QBs head-to-head when they had Division Champion teams...Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning (the good '14 PM not the '15 garbage), and Andrew Luck.

It is absurd to claim that Dalton does not give us a chance to compete with the big boys.

Dalton has not consistently gotten it done and that matters. His 106 rating was for a partial year (13 games). His best passer rating for a complete season was in 2016 at 91.8. The occasional run of good games is great, but when it comes crunch time it all falls apart (way to many examples to list here, but we all know them anyways). The random win against a top flight QB also has to be tempered with the many losses to playoff teams. Overall, he's been average and the bottom rung of the franchise QB ladder.

All of that said, I'm all for seeing what the new coaching staff can do with him. We've got him for 2 more years, so why not see what we can do with him. Just maybe that 106 rating can become normal for him.

More importantly, in my book, is can our personnel department actually find quality players for the OL and LB who will improve these areas *this* year?

We all could see that Ogbuehi wasn't the answer after his second year, even if Mike Brown couldn't. Most of us could see that Hart was likely not going to solve the RT problems, even if the Bengals brass thought he was a solution.

 

[Hoofhearted]

(01-23-2019, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has played at an elite level.  He has posted a 106 passer rating for a season.

Dalton has also beaten the following QBs head-to-head when they had Division Champion teams...Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning (the good '14 PM not the '15 garbage), and Andrew Luck.

It is absurd to claim that Dalton does not give us a chance to compete with the big boys.

Mark Sanchez and Jake the Snake Plummer also beat Tom Brady in the playoffs. Does that make them elite as well? 

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 01:53 PM)BengalChris Wrote:  The occasional run of good games is great, but when it comes crunch time it all falls apart.

Actually Dalton thrives in the fourth quarter.  According to Profootballreference.com since Andy entered the league in 2011 only ONE QB has more "4th quarter comebacks" than Dalton's 20, and only 2 have more 4th quarter "Game winning drives" than Dalton's 24.

(01-23-2019, 01:53 PM)BengalChris Wrote: The random win against a top flight QB also has to be tempered with the many losses to playoff teams. 

Those wins were not just random.  I can't break it down by QB, but since 2011 only 8 teams have more wins against playoff teams than the Bengals and neither McCarron nor Driskel beat a team that finished better than 5-11.  The Bengals do have a losing record to playoff teams since 2011 but so do 28 other NFL teams.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 02:32 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Mark Sanchez and Jake the Snake Plummer also beat Tom Brady in the playoffs. Does that make them elite as well? 

No.  I claimed Dalton has played at an elite level because he had a season with a 106 passer rating.

Would you say that Sanchez and Plummer had "no chance to compete with the big boys"?

[Hoofhearted]

(01-23-2019, 02:53 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  I claimed Dalton has played at an elite level because he had a season with a 106 passer rating.

Would you say that Sanchez and Plummer had "no chance to compete with the big boys"?

No, but I also wouldn't use an outlier as a point of emphasis that is distant from other observations.

[*ochocincos*]

(01-20-2019, 01:43 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: And there will be some that are disappointed to find out our new coaches go in a different direction, moving on from players they love.

Or still not playing someone that the fans wanted to see playing time before (e.g. Westerman, Jefferson)

[t3r3e3]

(01-23-2019, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has played at an elite level.  He has posted a 106 passer rating for a season.

Dalton has also beaten the following QBs head-to-head when they had Division Champion teams...Tom Brady, Aaron Rodgers, Russell Wilson, Peyton Manning (the good '14 PM not the '15 garbage), and Andrew Luck.

It is absurd to claim that Dalton does not give us a chance to compete with the big boys.

The 106 year was the exception to Dalton’s career, his other years consisted of one 91 rating and a bunch of low-mid 80’s ratings. You’re cherry picking 12.5% of Dalton’s career Fred. Andy’s career, ratings wise, is far closer to Ryan Fitzpatrick than Russel Wilson. Elite and Andy Dalton are not in the same objective conversation.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

[Big Boss]

I guess I don't see the harm in rolling with Dalton for another year or two. He gives you some stability at the QB position while you're rebuilding the roster, and he gives us more breathing room to find his successor in the next couple of years without having to reach in a mediocre draft class.

People going into next year with a "Playoffs or Bust" mentality are likely in for a disappointment. Sure, it'd be great if the team defies expectations and makes it in. But I'd say we are firmly planted in a semi-rebuild phase, and immediate success is not guaranteed. This may take some time.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 03:13 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The 106 year was the exception to Dalton’s career, his other years consisted of one 91 rating and a bunch of low-mid 80’s ratings.  You’re cherry picking 12.5% of Dalton’s career Fred.  Andy’s career, ratings wise, is far closer to Ryan Fitzpatrick than Russel Wilson.  Elite and Andy Dalton are not in the same objective conversation.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

Dalton has proven he can play at an elite level.  You can not deny that he has the ability.

[BengalsRocker]

I've said numerous times I'd like to see Dalton under a different HC and a OC in at least one season here.

The only reason I was prompted to post about Fitzpatrick in a couple of scenarios because guys like Foles, Tannehill, and Carr seem like expensive options for almost lateral moves.

Fitz was possibly just a cheap option as a bridge or an expensive yet experienced back up to Dalton.

Nobody is saying a draft pick is just gonna waltz in and outplay Dalton if he was traded... but who really knows 100%?

Especially if the team around him has improved enough to give him a greater chance.

I just don't think Driskel is the guy we want as backup in whatever scenario.

[McC]

(01-23-2019, 04:06 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: I've said numerous times I'd like to see Dalton under a different HC and a OC in at least one season here.

The only reason I was prompted to post about Fitzpatrick in a couple of scenarios because guys like Foles, Tannehill, and Carr seem like expensive options for almost lateral moves.

Fitz was possibly just a cheap option as a bridge or an expensive yet experienced back up to Dalton.

Nobody is saying a draft pick is just gonna waltz in and outplay Dalton if he was traded... but who really knows 100%?

Especially if the team around him has improved enough to give him a greater chance.

I just don't think Driskel is the guy we want as backup in whatever scenario.

Most definitely not.  He has been outed, so to speak.

[t3r3e3]

(01-23-2019, 03:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Dalton has proven he can play at an elite level.  You can not deny that he has the ability.

Proven possible? Yes

Proven consistently over his career? No.

The stats at the link below bear this out. Andy is capable of very high level play, it just doesn’t happen consistently. You chose 12.5% of his career to point out “elite”. What about the other 87.5 that is average/slightly above average/slightly below average? I’m not arguing for the sake of argument. If we’re betting on probability, the probability of elite play is a long shot when compared to the entirety of said career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

[Bengalitis]

(01-20-2019, 12:54 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: If Dre K could catch you would be singing a different tune. He was in position A LOT last year, just didn't capitalize. From the games I saw, I actually thought he had a decent year.

Hard to think anyone played well with the D stinking that badly, but any semblance of a pass rush would make all of our DBs look better.

You would think after so many close ones, they would have put him to catch 200+ balls daily to improve and be able to successfully catch them by the second half of the season and this coming season. Marvin's coaches. Oh! and "that's why he plays Defense" is not an excuse.