No More Marvin Loyalty Means Whole New Look

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 04:12 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Proven possible?  Yes

Proven consistently over his career?  No.

The stats at the link below bear this out. Andy is capable of very high level play, it just doesn’t happen consistently.  You chose 12.5% of his career to point out “elite”.  What about the other 87.5 that is average/slightly above average/slightly below average?  I’m not arguing for the sake of argument.  If we’re betting on probability, the probability of elite play is a long shot when compared to the entirety of said career.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DaltAn00.htm

Every team in the NFL would like to have an "elite" QB, but you don't see 25 teams rolling over to a new QB every year.  Superstar QBs are so hard to find that when a team has a QB as good as Dalton they build around him instead of using resources on finding a new QB.

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-23-2019, 12:05 PM)HuDey Wrote: I’m not saying we have to draft a QB THIS year, but it needs to happen soon and it will probably require the trading of Dalton for picks to put us in position to get the right guy. As for the chemistry that you spoke of, where has that gotten us?...an early exit from the playoffs is not what I hope that Bengals management is striving for. I want this team to  be all in on this rebuild. I want a totally new culture here and the coaching changes are a great start but the QB is also huge in driving that culture and I just don’t believe that a guy hand picked and trained under Marvin Lewis is right to lead us into a new era.

I get what you're saying and mostly agree, but.

The Bengals have changed the culture finally ! I was 100% prepared to hear ML extended for another season, in fact I'd have bet on it. The morning I heard Lewis was gone I about swallowed my tongue. The I was like sweet but they're going to pull the old BS and force feed everything down the new guys throat, keep Hue, and so on.

And now they've wiped the slate clean and I'm just WOW ! Is this the Bengals and MB ??

Dalton and Co. have been saddled with Mediocre Marv and staff from the beginning. I think our best course is to see what AD can do under new leadership and then go from there especially considering where the Oline and rest of the team is at.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 01:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: https://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-rams-line-whitworth-20171006-story.html

"Andrew Whitworth's leadership sparks turnaround for Rams' offensive line"

That is a good read but let’s look at what happened there. Whit went to a new organization and added something to the chemistry of that team. He did not spark the Bengals whose culture and chemistry he was already ingrained in to the Super Bowl.

Now I’m glad that you brought up the Rams, let’s look at what they have done to reach thier current level of success...

1. They took a chance on a young QB in Goff.

2. They found a brilliant Head Coach in Sean McVay.

3. They added high quality players from outside the organization such as Whitworth.

These are exactly the types of things that I am proposing we do here.

[Big Boss]

(01-23-2019, 04:32 PM)HuDey Wrote: That is a good read but let’s look at what happened there. Whit went to a new organization and added something to the chemistry of that team. He did not spark the Bengals whose culture and chemistry he was already ingrained in to the Super Bowl.

Now I’m glad that you brought up the Rams, let’s look at what they have done to reach thier current level of success...

1. They took a chance on a young QB in Goff.

2. They found a brilliant Head Coach in Sean McVay.

3. They added high quality players from outside the organization such as Whitworth.

These are exactly the types of things that I am proposing we do here.

Except the Rams were in a prime position to draft a QB like Jared Goff without having to give anything up. 

Do you believe in Dwayne Haskins or Kyler Murray enough to give up the picks needed to move into the top 10?  I don't.

[McC]

(01-23-2019, 04:39 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Except the Rams were in a prime position to draft a QB like Jared Goff without having to give anything up. 

Do you believe in Dwayne Haskins or Kyler Murray enough to give up the picks needed to move into the top 10?  I don't.

And they spent about a dozen years being shitty enough to collect a bunch of high draft picks.  That's a part of their road I don't want to see us travel.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 04:32 PM)HuDey Wrote: 1. They took a chance on a young QB in Goff.

They had to because their starter, Case Keenum, had a career passer rating in the 70's.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 04:39 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Except the Rams were in a prime position to draft a QB like Jared Goff without having to give anything up. 

Actually the Rams gave up six picks (2 firsts, 2 seconds, and 2 thirds) in order to draft Goff number one overall.

[BengalChris]

(01-23-2019, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually Dalton thrives in the fourth quarter.  According to Profootballreference.com since Andy entered the league in 2011 only ONE QB has more "4th quarter comebacks" than Dalton's 20, and only 2 have more 4th quarter "Game winning drives" than Dalton's 24.


Those wins were not just random.  I can't break it down by QB, but since 2011 only 8 teams have more wins against playoff teams than the Bengals and neither McCarron nor Driskel beat a team that finished better than 5-11.  The Bengals do have a losing record to playoff teams since 2011 but so do 28 other NFL teams.

Oh, you are the one who mentioned Andy and elite in the same sentence. Now you compare between Dalton and his backup QBs. That only proves that he's better than his backups, which one would generally assume.

Dalton is 3-12 against Pittsburgh.

Brady is 11-3 against Pittsburgh. 

Just to put out there how far away from elite we are talking about. We are miles out.

I'd like to find out what the new guy can do with Dalton to decide if it Dalton is any better or if Mediocre Marv was just holding him down or a combination of both of them really just being average Joes trying to play with the big boys in the league.
 
 

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 04:32 PM)HuDey Wrote: Whit went to a new organization and added something to the chemistry of that team. He did not spark the Bengals whose culture and chemistry he was already ingrained in to the Super Bowl.

But that was not his fault.  You can't claim Whit for keeping the Bengals out of the Super Bowl any more than you can blame Dalton.

If you use that logic then we need to also get rid of Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Boyd, Mixon, Bernard, Boling, Jackson, Dennard, Mixon, and Bernard.

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 05:05 PM)BengalChris Wrote:  Now you compare between Dalton and his backup QBs. That only proves that he's better than his backups, which one would generally assume.

I never compared Dalton to his back ups.  How does pointing out that since 2011 only 8 other teams have more wins against playoff teams than Dalton turn into "comparing him to his back ups".  


I was comparing Dalton to the QBs for every other team in the league.  I just brought up his backups because I was using "team" numbers and wanted to make it clear that Dalton was responsible for all of our victories over playoff teams.

BTW thanks for pointing out that Brady is better than Dalton.  How do you suggest we get Brady to be our QB?

[XsandOs]

(01-23-2019, 04:51 PM)McC Wrote: And they spent about a dozen years being shitty enough to collect a bunch of high draft picks.  That's a part of their road I don't want to see us travel.

I concur!!!

All this talk about complete rebuild and trading away Dalton, AJ, Geno, etc., baffles me to no end.

The nonsensical need for change just for the sake of change, plus the naive assumption that there are elite/great/better players to be had, makes me chuckle.

With inexperienced coaches, it is best to have experienced players and veteran leaders.

[BengalChris]

(01-23-2019, 05:12 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I never compared Dalton to his back ups.  How does pointing out that since 2011 only 8 other teams have more wins against playoff teams than Dalton turn into "comparing him to his back ups".  


I was comparing Dalton to the QBs for every other team in the league.  I just brought up his backups because I was using "team" numbers and wanted to make it clear that Dalton was responsible for all of our victories over playoff teams.

BTW thanks for pointing out that Brady is better than Dalton.  How do you suggest we get Brady to be our QB?

Of course you did.

And you keep taking sentences out of context by leaving out the rest of the post, which alters the meaning of the original poster said.

I never suggested getting Brady as our QB. I am suggesting that there are better QBs, but I'd like to see what the new coaching staff can do with Dalton. I'm not ready to thrown Dalton under the bus. I'm also not convinced the averageness of Dalton so far is on anyone other than Dalton either. He's had one really good passing year out of 8 in an era where passing is made as easy as possible. That makes me doubt he can do that consistently since he's hasn't in the past.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 04:39 PM)Big Boss Wrote: Except the Rams were in a prime position to draft a QB like Jared Goff without having to give anything up. 

Do you believe in Dwayne Haskins or Kyler Murray enough to give up the picks needed to move into the top 10?  I don't.

No. Which is why I said that it does not have to happen THIS year. We can either wait until we completely bottom out and have a top 5 pick in the draft or we can make some moves and trade up in the draft for our guy while we still have a fair amount of talent on board....I know which option I prefer.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 05:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But that was not his fault.  You can't claim Whit for keeping the Bengals out of the Super Bowl any more than you can blame Dalton.

If you use that logic then we need to also get rid of Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Boyd, Mixon, Bernard, Boling, Jackson, Dennard, Mixon, and Bernard.

I didn’t claim Whit kept the Bengals out of the Super Bowl. The article that you posted basically credits Whit for sparking the Rams to thier current level of success. The point that you are choosing to ignore is that the Rams did not suddenly change their fortunes because Andrew Whitworth showed up. They made drastic coaching changes, invested in the QB position, AND added quality FA such as Whitworth.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 04:51 PM)fredtoast Wrote: They had to because their starter, Case Keenum, had a career passer rating in the 70's.

Passer ratings don’t win Super Bowls and neither do teams that can’t score in the post season.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 05:32 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Of course you did.

And you keep taking sentences out of context by leaving out the rest of the post, which alters the meaning of the original poster said.

I never suggested getting Brady as our QB. I am suggesting that there are better QBs, but I'd like to see what the new coaching staff can do with Dalton. I'm not ready to thrown Dalton under the bus. I'm also not convinced the averageness of Dalton so far is on anyone other than Dalton either. He's had one really good passing year out of 8 in an era where passing is made as easy as possible. That makes me doubt he can do that consistently since he's hasn't in the past.

Coincidence?....I think not!

[grampahol]

I don't think Driskle will ever be "the man", but who could have this past season with near zero TE's, a OL worth exactly 3.2 cents and almost everyone left just limping to the finish line (not to mention a lame duck HC)? I really can't defend Driskle, but he really didn't exactly walk into the best possible scenario for success. He was in the perfect damned if you do, damned if you don't position. 

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 05:32 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Of course you did.

No.  I did not.  I compared Dalton to the QBs for all the other teams in the league  I just included the info on McCarron and Driskel to show that they did not ccount for any of the wins against [playoff teams.  here is the post for you to read again

(01-23-2019, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote:  I can't break it down by QB, but since 2011 only 8 teams have more wins against playoff teams than the Bengals and neither McCarron nor Driskel beat a team that finished better than 5-11.  

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 05:57 PM)HuDey Wrote: Passer ratings don’t win Super Bowls 

Then why do we need a new QB?

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 05:55 PM)HuDey Wrote: I didn’t claim Whit kept the Bengals out of the Super Bowl. The article that you posted basically credits Whit for sparking the Rams to thier current level of success. The point that you are choosing to ignore is that the Rams did not suddenly change their fortunes because Andrew Whitworth showed up. They made drastic coaching changes, invested in the QB position, AND added quality FA such as Whitworth.

Now I am completely confused.  First you said that we have to get rid of Dalton because a player drafted by Marvin Lewis could not lead a Super Bowl team.  Now you say that leadership does not make any difference without other things.  So which is it?

If leadership matters then why can't Dalton be just as good of a leader as Whitworth?

And if leadership does not make a difference without all these other things why do we have to get rid of Dalton just because a Marvin draft pick can't be a leader?