No More Marvin Loyalty Means Whole New Look

[fredtoast]

(01-23-2019, 05:33 PM)HuDey Wrote: No. Which is why I said that it does not have to happen THIS year. We can either wait until we completely bottom out and have a top 5 pick in the draft or we can make some moves and trade up in the draft for our guy while we still have a fair amount of talent on board....I know which option I prefer.

Your logic fails.  There are more than just two options.

[McC]

(01-23-2019, 06:11 PM)grampahol Wrote: I don't think Driskle will ever be "the man", but who could have this past season with near zero TE's, a OL worth exactly 3.2 cents and almost everyone left just limping to the finish line (not to mention a lame duck HC)? I really can't defend Driskle, but he really didn't exactly walk into the best possible scenario for success. He was in the perfect damned if you do, damned if you don't position. 

This is all true.  But he threw a lot of bad passes.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 06:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Your logic fails.  There are more than just two options.

Sure. The possibilities are endless. Most of them are unlikely to yield the desired result, but they do exist.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 06:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do we need a new QB?

Because the one we have fails to rise to the occasion at the worst possible times. Marvin lost his job for that reason. How much of the blame do you put on Marvin?...How much do you put on Dalton?...You don’t seem to want to point the finger at either, so then how do you explain the habitual faceplanting that has gone on here ?

[*bengalfan74*]

(01-23-2019, 06:11 PM)grampahol Wrote: I don't think Driskle will ever be "the man", but who could have this past season with near zero TE's, a OL worth exactly 3.2 cents and almost everyone left just limping to the finish line (not to mention a lame duck HC)? I really can't defend Driskle, but he really didn't exactly walk into the best possible scenario for success. He was in the perfect damned if you do, damned if you don't position. 

Yep, but the Oline, coach, and lack of weapons have nothing to do with throwing the ball 10 feet over everybody's head. Unless we can find a group of receivers with a 30 yard catch radius he's not the answer.

[Bengalsrob]

(01-23-2019, 06:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am completely confused.  First you said that we have to get rid of Dalton because a player drafted by Marvin Lewis could not lead a Super Bowl team.  Now you say that leadership does not make any difference without other things.  So which is it?

If leadership matters then why can't Dalton be just as good of a leader as Whitworth?

And if leadership does not make a difference without all these other things why do we have to get rid of Dalton just because a Marvin draft pick can't be a leader?

I think we have to roll with Dalton for now, he's cheap and we have bigger needs. But, (and I blame this on Marvin) Dalton would throw an interception, and seldom looked mad, but rather had the so what, tee-hee Giggles look on his face every time. I gotta think the entire team attitude and production changes with a new staff, at least I hope so.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-23-2019, 07:50 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, but the Oline, coach, and lack of weapons have nothing to go with throwing the ball 10 feet over everybody's head. Unless we can find a group of receivers with a 30 yard catch radius he's not the answer.

[BengalsRocker]

(01-23-2019, 08:05 PM)Bengalsrob Wrote: I think we have to roll with Dalton for now, he's cheap and we have bigger needs. But, (and I blame this on Marvin) Dalton would throw an interception, and seldom looked mad, but rather had the so what, tee-hee Giggles look on his face every time. I gotta think the entire team attitude and production changes with a new staff, at least I hope so.

Every person deals with adversity differently.  He's probably mad but not showing it.  Not everyone rants with anger when things don't go right.

That being said.  An experienced vet QB, that has recently started, standing on the sidelines might turn the heat up some.

[Bengalsrob]

(01-23-2019, 08:11 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Every person deals with adversity differently.  He's probably mad but not showing it.  Not everyone rants with anger when things don't go right.

That being said.  An experienced vet QB, that has recently started, standing on the sidelines might turn the heat up some.

Thanks for saying that Rocker, I was afraid to, but I agree wholeheartedly!

[Nicomo Cosca]

(01-23-2019, 05:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But that was not his fault.  You can't claim Whit for keeping the Bengals out of the Super Bowl any more than you can blame Dalton.

If you use that logic then we need to also get rid of Green, Atkins, Dunlap, Boyd, Mixon, Bernard, Boling, Jackson, Dennard, Mixon, and Bernard.

Dalton plays the most important position. He’s obviously going to be held to the highest standards. However unfair you think that is.

[HuDey]

(01-23-2019, 06:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Now I am completely confused.  First you said that we have to get rid of Dalton because a player drafted by Marvin Lewis could not lead a Super Bowl team.  Now you say that leadership does not make any difference without other things.  So which is it?

If leadership matters then why can't Dalton be just as good of a leader as Whitworth?

And if leadership does not make a difference without all these other things why do we have to get rid of Dalton just because a Marvin draft pick can't be a leader?

I did not say either of those things you claim. Please show me the quotes that confused you, and I will be happy to explain them to you. The first one looks like an inaccurate paraphrasing of what I actually posted, and the second one is not even close to what I posted. You already know this because you are trying to scramble the eggs and pretend that the yolk didn’t break.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-23-2019, 05:05 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Oh, you are the one who mentioned Andy and elite in the same sentence. Now you compare between Dalton and his backup QBs. That only proves that he's better than his backups, which one would generally assume.

Dalton is 3-12 against Pittsburgh.

Brady is 11-3 against Pittsburgh. 

Just to put out there how far away from elite we are talking about. We are miles out.

I'd like to find out what the new guy can do with Dalton to decide if it Dalton is any better or if Mediocre Marv was just holding him down or a combination of both of them really just being average Joes trying to play with the big boys in the league.
 
 

Until proven otherwise, I'mma put that one on Merv.  For the most part, Andy has played well against Pitt.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-23-2019, 05:57 PM)HuDey Wrote: Passer ratings don’t win Super Bowls and neither do teams that can’t score in the post season.

It's a good thing they don't, cause Pig Pen "won" one with a 22.5.

[Earendil]

(01-23-2019, 07:44 PM)HuDey Wrote: Because the one we have fails to rise to the occasion at the worst possible times. Marvin lost his job for that reason. How much of the blame do you put on Marvin?...How much do you put on Dalton?...You don’t seem to want to point the finger at either, so then how do you explain the habitual faceplanting that has gone on here ?

At the risk of interjecting myself into your discussion, I would argue that the entire team failed to "rise to the occasion" under Marvin.  Look at Marvin's overall primetime/postseason record, with and without Andy.  It's abysmal.  Sure, Andy had some real stinkers (Thurs night against Cleveland), but he also had some decent games where the rest of the team imploded.  So, to answer the question you never asked me , I put more of the blame on Marvin than I do Andy.

That said, if Taylor decides he wants a different QB, then I'll wish Andy the best as I welcome the new guy.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-24-2019, 10:37 AM)Earendil Wrote: At the risk of interjecting myself into your discussion, I would argue that the entire team failed to "rise to the occasion" under Marvin.  Look at Marvin's overall primetime/postseason record, with and without Andy.  It's abysmal.  Sure, Andy had some real stinkers (Thurs night against Cleveland), but he also had some decent games where the rest of the team imploded.  So, to answer the question you never asked me , I put more of the blame on Marvin than I do Andy.

That said, if Taylor decides he wants a different QB, then I'll wish Andy the best as I welcome the new guy.

Exactly this.  On all fronts.

Anyone remember the NE game, we gave up a safety, the defense shit the bed, the "on to Cincinnati" game?

21/31 254yds 1/0, 1 rushing TD, 103.4 rating.....but yeah, we got torched 35-17.  Not eye popping, but certainly not the reason we lost.  This is one example.  The Cleveland game was the worst, obviously, but he's played well enough to win several of these primetime affairs since, with a sprinkle here and there of a bad game.

The consistent? Marvin.

I'm with you on Coach Taylor's decision as well.

[HuDey]

(01-24-2019, 10:37 AM)Earendil Wrote: At the risk of interjecting myself into your discussion, I would argue that the entire team failed to "rise to the occasion" under Marvin.  Look at Marvin's overall primetime/postseason record, with and without Andy.  It's abysmal.  Sure, Andy had some real stinkers (Thurs night against Cleveland), but he also had some decent games where the rest of the team imploded.  So, to answer the question you never asked me , I put more of the blame on Marvin than I do Andy.

That said, if Taylor decides he wants a different QB, then I'll wish Andy the best as I welcome the new guy.

Thank you for offering your view of the situation. I agree that failure to rise is a team wide problem and not solely on the shoulders of Marvin and or Dalton. I also agree that more of the blame for this should be on Marvin as he is ultimately responsible for how his players perform. He has a big hand in which players are on the roster and which ones see the field on Sundays.

Having said that, Andy Dalton as a starting QB is in a high profile position of on-field leadership. His job goes beyond just taking snaps and running plays. He has to be a motivator, he has to inspire his teammates, and he also has to lead by example and promote a sense of urgency between the lines. I think that Dalton has a pretty good physical skill set, but his intangible game is sorely lacking. His playing style is a product of Marvin Lewis era coaching, and for these reasons I feel that he also should share a portion of the blame for the failure to rise issue. These reasons are also why I feel that Dalton is the wrong guy to lead this team into a new culture.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-24-2019, 09:47 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Until proven otherwise, I'mma put that one on Merv.  For the most part, Andy has played well against Pitt.

Well against the Steelers. Are you kidding me. There goes any credibility you had. Not even the biggest Bengals homer would agree with this. And being a quarterback is more than throwing for 250 with a td n say he played decent and wasn’t the reason they lost. Being a quarterback means being the leader , coming up big on 3rd down time again n again.

[Socal Bengals fan]

(01-24-2019, 12:00 PM)HuDey Wrote: Thank you for offering your view of the situation. I agree that failure to rise is a team wide problem and not solely on the shoulders of Marvin and or Dalton. I also agree that more of the blame for this should be on Marvin as he is ultimately responsible for how his players perform. He has a big hand in which players are on the roster and which ones see the field on Sundays.

Having said that, Andy Dalton as a starting QB is in a high profile position of on-field leadership. His job goes beyond just taking snaps and running plays. He has to be a motivator, he has to inspire his teammates, and he also has to lead by example and promote a sense of urgency between the lines. I think that Dalton has a pretty good physical skill set, but his intangible game is sorely lacking. His playing style is a product of Marvin Lewis era coaching, and for these reasons I feel that he also should share a portion of the blame for the failure to rise issue. These reasons are also why I feel that Dalton is the wrong guy to lead this team into a new culture.

Agree mang

[Earendil]

(01-24-2019, 12:00 PM)HuDey Wrote: Thank you for offering your view of the situation. I agree that failure to rise is a team wide problem and not solely on the shoulders of Marvin and or Dalton. I also agree that more of the blame for this should be on Marvin as he is ultimately responsible for how his players perform. He has a big hand in which players are on the roster and which ones see the field on Sundays.

Having said that, Andy Dalton as a starting QB is in a high profile position of on-field leadership. His job goes beyond just taking snaps and running plays. He has to be a motivator, he has to inspire his teammates, and he also has to lead by example and promote a sense of urgency between the lines. I think that Dalton has a pretty good physical skill set, but his intangible game is sorely lacking. His playing style is a product of Marvin Lewis era coaching, and for these reasons I feel that he also should share a portion of the blame for the failure to rise issue. These reasons are also why I feel that Dalton is the wrong guy to lead this team into a new culture.

I can't disagree with you there.  I would, however, like to see him get a shot with a new set of coaches with a different culture to see if he flourishes or flounders.  Perhaps it would be better for him if that chance were with another team, I honestly don't know.  I do think he deserves a chance though.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(01-24-2019, 12:04 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Well against the Steelers.   Are you kidding me. There goes any credibility you had.  Not even the biggest Bengals homer would agree with this.  And being a quarterback is more than throwing for 250 with a td n say he played decent and wasn’t the reason they lost.  Being a quarterback means being the leader , coming up big on 3rd down time again n again.

Sure.....we could say I have no credibility, or......we could look at the numbers objectively.

2011:


L 24-17:  15/30 170 yds 2/2 RTG. 61.8

L 35-7:  11/24 135 yds 1/0 RTG. 77.6


2012:


L 24-17:  14/28 105 yds 1/1 RTG. 56.4

W 13-10:  24/41 278 yds 0/2 RTG. 74.2


2013:


W 20-10:  25/45 280 yds 1/0 RTG. 81.7

L 30-20:  25/44 230 yds 2/0 RTG. 86.4


2014:


L 42-21:  21/29 302 yds 2/0 RTG. 128.8

L 27-17:  27/38 244 yds 2/2 RTG. 83.7


2015:


W 16-10:  23/38 231 yds 1/2 RTG. 64.7

injured 2nd game


2016:


L 24-16:  31/54 366 yds 1/0 RTG. 84.3

L 20-24:  16/27 157 yds 0/1 RTG. 60.3


2017:


L 29-14:  17/30 140 yds 2/2 RTG. 63.2

L 23-20:  21/36 234 2/0 RTG. 96.3


2018:


L 21-28:  26/42 229 yds 2/0 RTG. 92.3


So, what can we glean from this?  The first two years were rough, no doubt.  As time went on, he has played well against Pitt in some losses, and played bad in a few losses, and a lot of decent games.  He has played well in 2 wins, and not so well in a win.

So maybe I wasn't as clear as I should have been.....he has played well at times against Pitt, and we still lost.  Should I post Pitt's rushing numbers against us, or no?  I'll give you hint....they did well, and Pig Pen had less yards than Dalton in several of those games.

So, considering Merv's overall record against Pitt, I put more of it on the coaching than the players.  Any of them.