Jack Del Rio - Converting to 3-4

[Okeana]

There is a good chance that if Jack Del Rio becomes the new DC that we will be making a switch to 3-4. How will this affect our draft prospects and does this put guys like Atkins or Dunlap on the trade block? Where would you see current players in a 3-4?

[treee]

I'm sure Atkins would do fine at DE in a 3-4. The move from DE to OLB would be more difficult for Dunlap though probably.

[*Synric*]

(01-25-2019, 06:11 PM)Okeana Wrote: There is a good chance that if Jack Del Rio becomes the new DC that we will be making a switch to 3-4.  How will this affect our draft prospects and does this put guys like Atkins or Dunlap on the trade block?  Where would you see current players in a 3-4?

I'm pretty sure Del Rio runs a 43 defense with a 2 gap front.

[Okeana]

(01-25-2019, 06:21 PM)Synric Wrote: I'm pretty sure Del Rio runs a 43 defense with a 2 gap front.

You're correct for some reason I had always assumed he implemented the 3-4 in Denver guess it was Wade Philips.  I guess we will be riding that 4-3 out forever lol

[*Synric*]

(01-25-2019, 06:29 PM)Okeana Wrote: You're correct for some reason I had always assumed he implemented the 3-4 in Denver guess it was Wade Philips.  I guess we will be riding that 4-3 out forever lol

I dont know if I'm on the Del Rio train because of it. If it was a 34 single gap front It wouldn't bother me but using a 2 gap system could really chain Geno as a penetrating interior linemen.

[Okeana]

(01-25-2019, 06:36 PM)Synric Wrote: I dont know if I'm on the Del Rio train because of it. If it was a 34 single gap front It wouldn't bother me but using a 2 gap system could really chain Geno as a penetrating interior linemen.

Yeah, I think the league is leaning towards a hybrid 3-4 and you can see that with teams who consistently get deep in the playoffs.  The last successful 4-3 2 gap I saw was the legion of boom when they won the Superbowl and that team was just loaded with talent.  

[HarleyDog]

(01-25-2019, 06:40 PM)Okeana Wrote: Yeah, I think the league is leaning towards a hybrid 3-4 and you can see that with teams who consistently get deep in the playoffs.  The last successful 4-3 2 gap I saw was the legion of boom when they won the Superbowl and that team was just loaded with talent.  

Probably wont happen right away if JDR wants to go this route. Our LB corps is weak at best. Hard to go to a 3-4 unless you have precisely the right guys you believe can make it work, and these guys need to be workhorses. I see the strengths of the 3-4 as it can stop huge runs, and react to the pass. In addition to giving the backs, for a fraction of a second once the ball is snapped, to see what is developing and controlling the situation. I like the 3-4 because you can quickly switch it at the line to a 4-3 at the last second.

The 4-3 (IMO) is a more run stopping defensive approach and your hopes of getting to the QB. We have ran the 4-3 for years and although we have had success against the run, the last few years we have been eaten up by it. So, what do we do? When you run a 4-3 and have poor coverage with your safety's, you get a bad ranked D overall and abused frequently. It seems more difficult transitioning (on a play) from a 4-3 to a 3-4. 

If the hybrid can be figured out (which takes a lot of planning, execution and coaching) on this team, I see it as being a tool to escalate the Bengals D into a top 5, if not top 3 in the next 2-3yrs. But it cant happen right away with a defense that has been built around a 4-3 defense and the only defense that's been ran by Merv for all these years. To the best of my knowledge, he never veered from 4-3. D needs help finding themselves. I don't see flexibility right away here.

[Whatever]

(01-25-2019, 07:21 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Probably wont happen right away if JDR wants to go this route. Our LB corps is weak at best. Hard to go to a 3-4 unless you have precisely the right guys you believe can make it work, and these guys need to be workhorses. I see the strengths of the 3-4 as it can stop huge runs, and react to the pass. In addition to giving the backs, for a fraction of a second once the ball is snapped, to see what is developing and controlling the situation. I like the 3-4 because you can quickly switch it at the line to a 4-3 at the last second.

The 4-3 (IMO) is a more run stopping defensive approach and your hopes of getting to the QB. We have ran the 4-3 for years and although we have had success against the run, the last few years we have been eaten up by it. So, what do we do? When you run a 4-3 and have poor coverage with your safety's, you get a bad ranked D overall and abused frequently. It seems more difficult transitioning (on a play) from a 4-3 to a 3-4. 

If the hybrid can be figured out (which takes a lot of planning, execution and coaching) on this team, I see it as being a tool to escalate the Bengals D into a top 5, if not top 3 in the next 2-3yrs. But it cant happen right away with a defense that has been built around a 4-3 defense and the only defense that's been ran by Merv for all these years. To the best of my knowledge, he never veered from 4-3. D needs help finding themselves. I don't see flexibility right away here.

They've run some 3-3-5  nickel looks in the past with Geathers and later MJ as the "rush" LB.  They could probably incorporate some of that again with Lawson and/or Hubbard in the role.  

[HarleyDog]

(01-25-2019, 07:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: They've run some 3-3-5  nickel looks in the past with Geathers and later MJ as the "rush" LB.  They could probably incorporate some of that again with Lawson and/or Hubbard in the role.  

But I don't see the effectiveness of that scheme. Honestly, that's more of a poor mans prevent don't you think? Or as Marvin says, "play not to lose" defense. The 3-3-5 would is interesting, but I think we get a lot of short/safe pass coverage out of it. Although, a 3-3 could be a lethal tool if used to form a blitz and leave 5 for coverage. I wonder what our success rate was running this because, TBH, I really never identified it. Very interesting tho.

[Yojimbo]

Del Rio runs a 4-3, but started adding hybrid fronts during his time in Denver. So, we can probably expect both 4-3 and 3-4 looks.

[Whatever]

(01-25-2019, 07:46 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: But I don't see the effectiveness of that scheme. Honestly, that's more of a poor mans prevent don't you think? Or as Marvin says, "play not to lose" defense. The 3-3-5 would is interesting, but I think we get a lot of short/safe pass coverage out of it. Although, a 3-3 could be a lethal tool if used to form a blitz and leave 5 for coverage. I wonder what our success rate was running this because, TBH, I really never identified it. Very interesting tho.

Iirc, it would show up about as much as that T's split wide stuff Hue used to run.  It was almost like something they would show just so the opponent would have to spend time prepping for it.  I don't remember it being overly bad or effective.  The main point would be to disguise who's rushing, but the DE standing up as a LB was almost always the 4th pass rusher, iirc.  It wasn't too different in practice than a normal 4-2-5 nickel.  We could hypothetically get more mileage out of it today by using Geno as the NT, Dunlap and Willis as the DE's, and then Hubbard and Lawson both as the OLB's with a traditional LB .  Then it wouldn't be so easy to figure out if one or both were coming.  

[Jpoore]

No way that'll happen. Not. Til. After Dunlap and Atkins are done.

[*ochocincos*]

If the defense stays a 4-3, I'd love to see a LB used as a 5th pass rusher occasionally. That's always been a frustration for me with Bengals teams in the past, only sending 4 rushers and usually only 2-3 being any good. Having that combined with LBs who are poor in coverage resulted in a mediocre defense. And once the run defense also started to decline, we saw a bottom-feeder defense.

[Au165]

He used Bruce Irvin as a hybrid Rush LB in the 4-3 similar to what Seattle did with him. I think Lawson could be a similar tool here for that.

[Yojimbo]

(01-28-2019, 05:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: He used Bruce Irvin as a hybrid Rush LB in the 4-3 similar to what Seattle did with him. I think Lawson could be a similar tool here for that.

He also coached Boulware in Baltimore and Von Miller in Denver, as a hybrid pass rushing role too. If it is Del Rio, gives me hope we might get some pass rushing out of at least one of our LB’s.

[Jpoore]

(01-27-2019, 12:33 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When fans have to come up with lots of excuses for a player it is the player who is the problem. Ross couldn't get on the field in his rookie year because he was a healthy inactive for many games. Getting injured later was just an excuse to the failed year. AJ Green, Marvin Jones, Sanu and Boyd didn't have those problems with Marvin Lewis while Ross clearly did.

Ross is now one of several Bengals players who are going to have to show up much improved for the new coaching staff. At least he'll get a chance.

(01-28-2019, 03:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If the defense stays a 4-3, I'd love to see a LB used as a 5th pass rusher occasionally. That's always been a frustration for me with Bengals teams in the past, only sending 4 rushers and usually only 2-3 being any good. Having that combined with LBs who are poor in coverage resulted in a mediocre defense. And once the run defense also started to decline, we saw a bottom-feeder defense.

That's what Devin white is amazing at. Hell he blitzed like 10 times a game.

[J24]

I don't understand why everyone thinks we will be a 3-4 team if Deal Rio becomes D coordinator because he has run a 4-3 everywhere he has been.

[grampahol]

If I'm not mistaken a 4-3 or 3-4 are really just the base packages with hundreds of variables available as the games go on. In my mind it's akin to the argument about starters vs great players who aren't starters. Just because a player doesn't play the very first snap of the game doesn't mean they're somehow disqualified from the rest of the game anymore than a defense MUST stay in 4-3 or 3-4 the rest of the game..  Feel free to correct me on this ..I'm sure someone will. 

[*Synric*]

(01-28-2019, 03:02 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If the defense stays a 4-3, I'd love to see a LB used as a 5th pass rusher occasionally. That's always been a frustration for me with Bengals teams in the past, only sending 4 rushers and usually only 2-3 being any good. Having that combined with LBs who are poor in coverage resulted in a mediocre defense. And once the run defense also started to decline, we saw a bottom-feeder defense.

(01-28-2019, 05:04 PM)Au165 Wrote: He used Bruce Irvin as a hybrid Rush LB in the 4-3 similar to what Seattle did with him. I think Lawson could be a similar tool here for that.

Early in the season before the injuries to Lawson and Glasgow they used Hubbard as a pass rushing linebacker.

[Hammerstripes]

I don't worry too much about "base system" as the NFL is basically a sub package league these days.

I'll be more worried about his plans on covering TEs and RBs out of the backfield - 2 of the longstanding ways to gash a Bengals D.