Hobson still spinning the same old crap

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

List of all Bengals Comp Picks in Marvin Era

2003:
7th rd, Elton Patterson, DE

2004:
3rd rd, Landon Johnson, LB

2005:
- - -

2006:
- - -

2007:
7th rd, Chinedum Ndukwe, S

2008:
3rd rd, Andre Caldwell, WR
6th rd, Matt Sherry, TE
7th rd, Angelo Craig, DE
7th rd, Mario Urrutia, WR

2009:
3rd rd, Chase Coffman, TE
6th rd, Bernard Scott, RB
7th rd, Clinton McDonald, DE
7th rd, Freddie Brown, WR

2010:
3rd rd, Brandon Ghee, CB
4th rd, Roddrick Muckleroy, LB

2011:
7th rd, Jay Finley, RB

2012:
- - -

2013:
7th rd, Reid Fragel, OT
7th rd, TJ Johnson, C

2014:
6th rd, Marquis Flowers, LB
7th rd, Lavelle Westbrooks, CB

2015:
3rd rd, Paul Dawson, LB
4th rd, Marcus Hardison, DE

2016:
- - -

2017:
4th rd, Ryan Glasgow, DT
5th rd, JJ Dielman, C
7th rd, Mason Schreck, TE

2018:
5th rd, Darius Phillips, CB
7th rd, Rod Taylor, G
7th rd, Auden Tate, WR


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Gotta love the sweet sweet payoff of avoiding getting good players in FA so you can turn players like Reggie Nelson, Kevin Zeitler, and Andrew Whitworth into preseason legends like Ryan Glasgow, Paul Dawson, and Marcus Hardison a year later.

[fredtoast]

(02-11-2019, 06:35 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: List of all Bengals Comp Picks in Marvin Era

2003:
7th rd, Elton Patterson, DE

2004:
3rd rd, Landon Johnson, LB

2005:
- - -

2006:
- - -

2007:
7th rd, Chinedum Ndukwe, S

2008:
3rd rd, Andre Caldwell, WR
6th rd, Matt Sherry, TE
7th rd, Angelo Craig, DE
7th rd, Mario Urrutia, WR

2009:
3rd rd, Chase Coffman, TE
6th rd, Bernard Scott, RB
7th rd, Clinton McDonald, DE
7th rd, Freddie Brown, WR

2010:
3rd rd, Brandon Ghee, CB
4th rd, Roddrick Muckleroy, LB

2011:
7th rd, Jay Finley, RB

2012:
- - -

2013:
7th rd, Reid Fragel, OT
7th rd, TJ Johnson, C

2014:
6th rd, Marquis Flowers, LB
7th rd, Lavelle Westbrooks, CB

2015:
3rd rd, Paul Dawson, LB
4th rd, Marcus Hardison, DE

2016:
- - -

2017:
4th rd, Ryan Glasgow, DT
5th rd, JJ Dielman, C
7th rd, Mason Schreck, TE

2018:
5th rd, Darius Phillips, CB
7th rd, Rod Taylor, G
7th rd, Auden Tate, WR


- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Gotta love the sweet sweet payoff of avoiding getting good players in FA so you can turn players like Reggie Nelson, Kevin Zeitler, and Andrew Whitworth into preseason legends like Ryan Glasgow, Paul Dawson, and Marcus Hardison a year later.

First of all not all of the players we let go were worth the money they got in free agency.  Would you have rather we paid Stacy Andrews in excess of $40 million instead of letting him go?

Second, we don't just get picks, we also get the salary cap room.  If we keep Nelson, Whitworth, and Zeitler then we have to cut a lot of guys from our 2016 roster.  Those three earned about $37 million in 2016.  The Bengals spent $157.6 million that year which was actually more than the league salary cap of $155.3 million.  They were able to do that because they had cap space to roll over from the previous year, but they would have had to cut a lot of players to keep Whit, Zeitler, and Nelson because they had less than $5 million in cap space.

And finally, the comp picks effect the entire draft.  For example, do we still use a 4th round pick on a DT in 2010 (Geno Atkins) if we had not addressed CB with our third round comp pick?

[*TheLeonardLeap*]

(02-11-2019, 07:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all not all of the players we let go were worth the money they got in free agency.  Would you have rather we paid Stacy Andrews in excess of $40 million instead of letting him go?

Second, we don't just get picks, we also get the salary cap room.  If we keep Nelson, Whitworth, and Zeitler then we have to cut a lot of guys from our 2016 roster.  Those three earned about $37 million in 2016.  The Bengals spent $157.6 million that year which was actually more than the league salary cap of $155.3 million.  They were able to do that because they had cap space to roll over from the previous year, but they would have had to cut a lot of players to keep Whit, Zeitler, and Nelson because they had less than $5 million in cap space.

And finally, the comp picks effect the entire draft.  For example, do we still use a 4th round pick on a DT in 2010 (Geno Atkins) if we had not addressed CB with our third round comp pick?

Fred-Posting 101

Step 1: Make a random claim that is easily proven wrong by anyone with a tiny bit of research, but present it like gospel.
ie. "Marvin Jones and George Iloka were compensatory picks."

Step 2: When someone points out with facts that you were wrong with said tiny bit of research, ignore it like it never happened and focus on an entirely different argument that was nowhere near your original argument, using extremes are best. Also ignore the points the other person made if they are inconvenient.
ie. "Would you prefer paying Stacy Andrews all of the monies? If you keep X players, you have to get rid of other players. If you do this, you won't get *insert best player here*."

Step 3: When the other side realizes they are being Fred-Posted, they lose interest in pointing out things like... the original point made wasn't that the Bengals should sign ALL of their free agents regardless of the price, but that they shouldn't avoid adding talented players in FA because of trying to Smeagol comp picks... congrats, you have Fred-Posted your way out of embarassment and into ending the conversation.

Step 4: Prepare another easily proven false argument to do it all again.

[fredtoast]

(02-11-2019, 07:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fred-Posting 101

Step 1: Make a random claim that is easily proven wrong by anyone with a tiny bit of research, but present it like gospel.
ie. "Marvin Jones and George Iloka were compensatory picks."

Step 2: When someone points out with facts that you were wrong with said tiny bit of research, ignore it like it never happened and focus on an entirely different argument that was nowhere near your original argument, using extremes are best. Also ignore the points the other person made if they are inconvenient.
ie. "Would you prefer paying Stacy Andrews all of the monies? If you keep X players, you have to get rid of other players. If you do this, you won't get *insert best player here*."

Step 3: When the other side realizes they are being Fred-Posted, they lose interest in pointing out things like... the original point made wasn't that the Bengals should sign ALL of their free agents regardless of the price, but that they shouldn't avoid adding talented players in FA because of trying to Smeagol comp picks... congrats, you have Fred-Posted your way out of embarassment and into ending the conversation.

Step 4: Prepare another easily proven false argument to do it all again.

Leonard posting 101...….Ignore all points made and result to personal attacks.


When discussing the issue of comp picks it is not as simplistic as "turning players like Reggie Nelson, Kevin Zeitler, and Andrew Whitworth into preseason legends like Ryan Glasgow, Paul Dawson, and Marcus Hardison a year later."

1.  You have to look at the total amount the team spent.  You can't just say "sign more expensive free agents" without explaining how you can fit them under the cap.

2.  You have to look at the total effect of the comp picks.  Like I said, we may never have drafted Geno if we had not used our third round comp pick on a CB.

Please explain how these two issues are "easily proven false".  I admit I made a mistake about Iloka and Jones, but that does not make everything else I said wrong.

[t3r3e3]

(02-11-2019, 07:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fred-Posting 101

Step 1: Make a random claim that is easily proven wrong by anyone with a tiny bit of research, but present it like gospel.
ie. "Marvin Jones and George Iloka were compensatory picks."

Step 2: When someone points out with facts that you were wrong with said tiny bit of research, ignore it like it never happened and focus on an entirely different argument that was nowhere near your original argument, using extremes are best. Also ignore the points the other person made if they are inconvenient.
ie. "Would you prefer paying Stacy Andrews all of the monies? If you keep X players, you have to get rid of other players. If you do this, you won't get *insert best player here*."

Step 3: When the other side realizes they are being Fred-Posted, they lose interest in pointing out things like... the original point made wasn't that the Bengals should sign ALL of their free agents regardless of the price, but that they shouldn't avoid adding talented players in FA because of trying to Smeagol comp picks... congrats, you have Fred-Posted your way out of embarassment and into ending the conversation.

Step 4: Prepare another easily proven false argument to do it all again.

No matter how you spin it Fred, that list of comp picks is a who’s who of colossal turds. Over 15 years of this “strategy”, and the best player acquired is arguably Landon Collins, Ndukwe, Clinton McDonald, or maybe Phillips if he improves. You couldn’t even make an average Arena League team with all those picks.

The bottom line is playing cheapskate, letting quality contributors walk to hoard comp picks has been a fool’s errand. The goal of any roster building exercise is to build the most competitive roster with the available resources. The Bengals netted zero long term starters with this strategy, unless you squint and count Collins. A few others (Caldwell, McDonald) went on to become functional reserves for other teams. Glasgow has been injured for a majority of his career. Other than that, turds and last year’s rookies. This strategy has been an abject failure.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-11-2019, 07:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: First of all not all of the players we let go were worth the money they got in free agency.  Would you have rather we paid Stacy Andrews in excess of $40 million instead of letting him go?

Second, we don't just get picks, we also get the salary cap room.  If we keep Nelson, Whitworth, and Zeitler then we have to cut a lot of guys from our 2016 roster.  Those three earned about $37 million in 2016.  The Bengals spent $157.6 million that year which was actually more than the league salary cap of $155.3 million.  They were able to do that because they had cap space to roll over from the previous year, but they would have had to cut a lot of players to keep Whit, Zeitler, and Nelson because they had less than $5 million in cap space.

And finally, the comp picks effect the entire draft.  For example, do we still use a 4th round pick on a DT in 2010 (Geno Atkins) if we had not addressed CB with our third round comp pick?

Wow, that sure is an interesting way to say "yeah man, you got me.  Only one of the three guys that I listed was actually a compensatory pick.".

[THE PISTONS]

Green is signed through this season. He's a free agent after the season when he will be 32.

[t3r3e3]

(02-11-2019, 08:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Wow, that sure is an interesting way to say "yeah man, you got me.  Only one of the three guys that I listed was actually a compensatory pick.".

Fred gonna Fred...

[fredtoast]

(02-11-2019, 08:37 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Wow, that sure is an interesting way to say "yeah man, you got me.  Only one of the three guys that I listed was actually a compensatory pick.".

(02-11-2019, 08:41 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Fred gonna Fred...

Just as I suspected.  Everyone ignoring the other points I made.

[fredtoast]

(02-11-2019, 08:36 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The bottom line is playing cheapskate, letting quality contributors walk to hoard comp picks has been a fool’s errand.

The bottom line is that at the same time you are calling the Bengals "cheapskates" for letting Whit, Nelson, and Zeitler walk the team was spending OVER the league salary cap on other players.

You can't say the Bengals are the worst for letting good players walk while at the same time claiming there are other good players leaving other teams in free agency.  If no other teams are letting good players leave then where are the good free agents coming from?

I have said many times that I wished the Bengals had been more aggressive at times in free agency, so I am not blindly defending their free agent policy.  But at the same time I realize how the NFL works.  Many teams let good players leave in free agency, and often times it is for monetary reasons.  You almost never see a team let top free agent walk just so they can spend the same amount on a new free agent from another team to replace him.

[SunsetBengal]

(02-11-2019, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just as I suspected.  Everyone ignoring the other points I made.

When someone catches you in an honest mistake, it generally acceptable to at least acknowledge the lapse in memory, before trying to simply brush past the incident by flooding with new points.  

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(02-11-2019, 07:27 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Fred-Posting 101

Step 1: Make a random claim that is easily proven wrong by anyone with a tiny bit of research, but present it like gospel.
ie. "Marvin Jones and George Iloka were compensatory picks."

Step 2: When someone points out with facts that you were wrong with said tiny bit of research, ignore it like it never happened and focus on an entirely different argument that was nowhere near your original argument, using extremes are best. Also ignore the points the other person made if they are inconvenient.
ie. "Would you prefer paying Stacy Andrews all of the monies? If you keep X players, you have to get rid of other players. If you do this, you won't get *insert best player here*."

Step 3: When the other side realizes they are being Fred-Posted, they lose interest in pointing out things like... the original point made wasn't that the Bengals should sign ALL of their free agents regardless of the price, but that they shouldn't avoid adding talented players in FA because of trying to Smeagol comp picks... congrats, you have Fred-Posted your way out of embarassment and into ending the conversation.

Step 4: Prepare another easily proven false argument to do it all again.

It is like a tape or something Fred listens to every night before he goes to bed.

[*psychdoctor*]

I know this may not be acceptable to most and it's just my opinion but I say let AJ Green Walk.

[THE PISTONS]

(02-11-2019, 11:56 PM)psychdoctor Wrote: I know this may not be acceptable to most and it's just my opinion but I say let AJ Green Walk.

I think a lot will depend on this year. If he gets injured and plays 10 games or less...then the case to let him go can be made.

IF he plays in 14+ games and puts up 1200+ yards...then he's worth keeping.

But, sometimes you have to keep your star players as they decline. He's an icon here and he has been nothing but team oriented. Guys like Chad and TJ and Dillon all badmouthed the franchise. Geno and AJ didn't. That needs rewarded.

The rewards may not bear fruit until the next generation, but it establishes a culture or team oriented guys.

[McC]

(02-12-2019, 12:08 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think a lot will depend on this year. If he gets injured and plays 10 games or less...then the case to let him go can be made.

IF he plays in 14+ games and puts up 1200+ yards...then he's worth keeping.

But, sometimes you have to keep your star players as they decline. He's an icon here and he has been nothing but team oriented. Guys like Chad and TJ and Dillon all badmouthed the franchise. Geno and AJ didn't. That needs rewarded.

The rewards may not bear fruit until the next generation, but it establishes a culture or team oriented guys.

Bravo.  Some things, and some people, are worth holding onto.

[Socal Bengals fan]

Okay. We can all agree that Fred is wrong for the 274,456,098,126 right ? No let’s move on

[Toy Cannon]

(02-12-2019, 05:16 AM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Okay.  We can all agree that Fred is wrong for the 274,456,098,126 right ?  Now let’s move on.

Exactly.  The Ignore List is your friend.

[Stewy]

(02-11-2019, 01:08 PM)NKURyan Wrote: How many team homepages are ever going to be at all critical of the team? You act like he's an independent reporter...

Pretty much this....

I don't get how logical adults don't understand that he's doing his job, which is to spin positive stories about the team.  To get upset about him not being a real journalist is somewhat baffling.

Being surprised, annoyed or disconcerted about the honesty of a Hobson piece is like being surprised by a prostitute putting out on a first date, and being annoyed that she might be "easy".

[t3r3e3]

(02-11-2019, 09:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The bottom line is that at the same time you are calling the Bengals "cheapskates" for letting Whit, Nelson, and Zeitler walk the team was spending OVER the league salary cap on other players.

You can't say the Bengals are the worst for letting good players walk while at the same time claiming there are other good players leaving other teams in free agency.  If no other teams are letting good players leave then where are the good free agents coming from?

I have said many times that I wished the Bengals had been more aggressive at times in free agency, so I am not blindly defending their free agent policy.  But at the same time I realize how the NFL works.  Many teams let good players leave in free agency, and often times it is for monetary reasons.  You almost never see a team let top free agent walk just so they can spend the same amount on a new free agent from another team to replace him.

I’m saying plainly, that the strategy of largely eschewing FA and relying on comp pick hoarding has not resulted in success, period. Good players have been replaced largely by marginal ones. Impact players were not netted by any of the comp picks. Hence, the team hasn’t made the Playoffs in 3 seasons.

[Socal Bengals fan]

We can all agree Comp picks are lame.