Bengals are the "perfect storm" for heated debate.

[fredtoast]

I was just thinking about why we all keep getting involved in the same debates regarding Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton. We all know both sides of the debate There isn't anything new that is going to pop up. My theory is that the debate is so strong because there really are valid points on both sides.

I'll bet I can find a fan of almost every NFL team who thinks their QB needs to be replaced. In some cases the QB clearly stinks and every one agrees. In other cases The QB is pretty good and the fan is not being reasonable. With the Bengals we have a QB who was used to define the line between these two groups. There is probably no guy in the league who has more good points on both sides of the argument than Andy Dalton. On one hand he has failed miserably every year in the playoffs, but on the other hand he has shown that he can produce with the best QBs in the league when he has healthy receivers.

Same goes for Marvin Lewis. Overall he has a winning record and is on a hot streak with 5 playoffs in the past 6 years. But he has never been able to win a playoff game either. It is very, very rare for a guy who is consistently making the playoffs to be fired. And history shows that it is not always the best move. But how much longer do you give Lewis? There has to be an end of the rope somewhere.


By posting this thread I did not mean to restart another Dalton/Lewis debate. I just wanted to point out that we are in a unique position as the fans of the Bengals. Both the "haters" and the "homers" have valid points on their side.

We are not an elite team, but we are much better than some give us credit for. And BOTH sides want us to be an elite team. We just disagree on what is the best plan to get us there.

The season will be upon us in a flash. I know there will be huge "over reaction" threads after every game both good and bad. But at least we will have something new and exciting to discuss every week.

[CornerBlitz]

I agree with your assessment. I'll leave it at that.

[EatonFan]

True dat. We should just make a permanent "Overreact here" thread (I believe there was one a few weeks back) just to clear the air after each game -- win or lose. As a matter of fact, that should just be Monday's (or the day after) ONLY thread to post in as most posts are just blather.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-12-2015, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was just thinking about why we all keep getting involved in the same debates regarding Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton.  We all know both sides of the debate  There isn't anything new that is going to pop up.  My theory is that the debate is so strong because there really are valid points on both sides.

I'll bet I can find a fan of almost every NFL team who thinks their QB needs to be replaced.  In some cases the QB clearly stinks and every one agrees.  In other cases The QB is pretty good and the fan is not being reasonable.  With the Bengals we have a QB who was used to define the line between these two groups.  There is probably no guy in the league who has more good points on both sides of the argument than Andy Dalton. On one hand he has failed miserably every year in the playoffs, but on the other hand he has shown that he can produce with the best QBs in the league when he has healthy receivers.

Same goes for Marvin Lewis.  Overall he has a winning record and is on a hot streak with 5 playoffs in the past 6 years.  But he has never been able to win a playoff game either.  It is very, very rare for a guy who is consistently making the playoffs to be fired.  And history shows that it is not always the best move.  But how much longer do you give Lewis?  There has to be an end of the rope somewhere.


By posting this thread I did not mean to restart another Dalton/Lewis debate.  I just wanted to point out that we are in a unique position as the fans of the Bengals.  Both the "haters" and the "homers" have valid points on their side.  

We are not an elite team, but we are much better than some give us credit for.  And BOTH sides want us to be an elite team.  We just disagree on what is the best plan to get us there.

The season will be upon us in a flash.  I know there will be huge "over reaction" threads after every game both good and bad.  But at least we will have something new and exciting to discuss every week.

Very true, very true, nice post Fred.

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(09-12-2015, 01:13 PM)EatonFan Wrote: True dat.  We should just make a permanent "Overreact here" thread (I believe there was one a few weeks back) just to clear the air after each game -- win or lose.  As a matter of fact, that should just be Monday's (or the day after) ONLY thread to post in as most posts are just blather.

Yeah, good thought Eaton.

[PApinhead]

Very good post Fred. I especially liked the next to last two paragraphs and hope that we can remember that we all want our Bengals to win the Super Bowl, and like you said, we just have different ideas on how to get there.

I love this board and discussing our Bengals, but I get tired of the snide remarks, insults, etc... just because we disagree on how to get there.

[PApinhead]

(09-12-2015, 01:13 PM)EatonFan Wrote: True dat.  We should just make a permanent "Overreact here" thread (I believe there was one a few weeks back) just to clear the air after each game -- win or lose.  As a matter of fact, that should just be Monday's (or the day after) ONLY thread to post in as most posts are just blather.

That is a good idea!!  I know I am one that gets wound up in the middle of a game and may(okay, will) say things that later, upon further reflection, I should not have said or didn't really mean.  I try not to, but I just get so fired up about my Bengals!!  Who Dey!!!!!!

[kdgjr]

(09-12-2015, 01:26 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, good thought Eaton.

Personally, I'd like to take whoever suggested its idea when we first migrated to this board and create a SINGLE "Andy Dalton" thread. That'll free up a ton of overreaction new threads.

Good, bad, indifferent...if the topic is Andy, its a one stop shop.

[Bengalholic]

(09-12-2015, 12:57 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I was just thinking about why we all keep getting involved in the same debates regarding Marvin Lewis and Andy Dalton.  We all know both sides of the debate  There isn't anything new that is going to pop up.  My theory is that the debate is so strong because there really are valid points on both sides.

I'll bet I can find a fan of almost every NFL team who thinks their QB needs to be replaced.  In some cases the QB clearly stinks and every one agrees.  In other cases The QB is pretty good and the fan is not being reasonable.  With the Bengals we have a QB who was used to define the line between these two groups.  There is probably no guy in the league who has more good points on both sides of the argument than Andy Dalton. On one hand he has failed miserably every year in the playoffs, but on the other hand he has shown that he can produce with the best QBs in the league when he has healthy receivers.

Same goes for Marvin Lewis.  Overall he has a winning record and is on a hot streak with 5 playoffs in the past 6 years.  But he has never been able to win a playoff game either.  It is very, very rare for a guy who is consistently making the playoffs to be fired.  And history shows that it is not always the best move.  But how much longer do you give Lewis?  There has to be an end of the rope somewhere.


By posting this thread I did not mean to restart another Dalton/Lewis debate.  I just wanted to point out that we are in a unique position as the fans of the Bengals.  Both the "haters" and the "homers" have valid points on their side.  

We are not an elite team, but we are much better than some give us credit for.  And BOTH sides want us to be an elite team.  We just disagree on what is the best plan to get us there.

The season will be upon us in a flash.  I know there will be huge "over reaction" threads after every game both good and bad.  But at least we will have something new and exciting to discuss every week.

Outstanding post Fred! 

[Night's Watch]

Great post, it's not like we were having start Garapollo over Brady threads after a 2 - 2 start, lol. Until the arguments, data, stats, etc start swinging more to one side or the other, the Bengals are indeed available for prime debating.

[Tiger Teeth]

This is a very good thread/post. Nice job fred.

[BengalsRocker]

[Bengalholic]

(09-12-2015, 01:50 PM)kdgjr Wrote: Personally, I'd like to take whoever suggested its idea when we first migrated to this board and create a SINGLE "Andy Dalton" thread. That'll free up a ton of overreaction new threads.

Good, bad, indifferent...if the topic is Andy, its a one stop shop.

People have been asking for this for a couple of years now, going back to the mothership. So, we'll finally give it a try... http://bengalsboard.net/Thread-The-Ultimate-ALL-THINGS-ANDY-DALTON-Mega-Thread

[Shake n Blake]

I made this exact point last year on the old boards and you repped me for it.

But yes, we as Bengals fans are in a very unique situation. We have a head coach who has only had 3 losing seasons out of 12. The Bengals have been consistently competitive with him. Yet on the flip side he's set records for playoff ineptitude.

Same goes for Dalton. Everyone agrees that the QB is the most important piece on the field. Dalton has been good enough to help guide this team to 40 wins. He's never missed the playoffs. He's set franchise records. He's won many fed ex air awards, won a POM award and made a pair of Pro Bowls. His career passer rating is as good or better than guys like Eli and Flacco. All that said, when Dalton is bad, he really stinks it up. The Browns have his number and he's been easily the worst player come playoff time.

Both sides have valid and strong points. That's what really fuels these debates. If one side didn't have good points, we would've stopped arguing years ago.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-12-2015, 10:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I made this exact point last year on the old boards and you repped me for it.

But yes, we as Bengals fans are in a very unique situation. We have a head coach who has only had 3 losing seasons out of 12. The Bengals have been consistently competitive with him. Yet on the flip side he's set records for playoff ineptitude.

Same goes for Dalton. Everyone agrees that the QB is the most important piece on the field. Dalton has been good enough to help guide this team to 40 wins. He's never missed the playoffs. He's set franchise records. He's won many fed ex air awards, won a POM award and made a pair of Pro Bowls. His career passer rating is as good or better than guys like Eli and Flacco. All that said, when Dalton is bad, he really stinks it up. The Browns have his number and he's been easily the worst player come playoff time.

Both sides have valid and strong points. That's what really fuels these debates. If one side didn't have good points, we would've stopped arguing years ago.

The hardest part is, when you try to be balanced about it both sides come at you and it is impossible to have a real discussion.

[t3r3e3]

(09-12-2015, 10:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The hardest part is, when you try to be balanced about it both sides come at you and it is impossible to have a real discussion.

Very true. FWIW I agree with Fred's post 100%, excellent post by him. The most frustrating part is that we, as fans, can see over the top of the "hump". On the other side is top tier status and a legitimate shot to be Super Bowl threats. Marvin and Andy have gotten us to the hump, but they've shown little to suggest the team will make it over the crest. That is the single most maddening aspect of the deal, and the biggest driver of criticism towards both.

[RoyleRedlegs]

(09-12-2015, 11:05 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Very true.  FWIW I agree with Fred's post 100%, excellent post by him.  The most frustrating part is that we, as fans, can see over the top of the "hump".  On the other side is top tier status and a legitimate shot to be Super Bowl threats.  Marvin and Andy have gotten us to the hump, but they've shown little to suggest the team will make it over the crest.  That is the single most maddening aspect of the deal, and the biggest driver of criticism towards both.

We've essentially been at the hump since 2005 with a slight recess 2007-2010...but even then, the team was never that bad just QB-less

I truly believe 2005 was our year. And it would have changed everything about this franchise. 

[The Caped Crusader]

It's funny how everyone says we want respect, this and that, but if we go and lose this game, everyone on this board will be wanting to throw X, Y and Z overboard. People just need to chill.

[ItsOdellThurman]

I totally agree, great post.

However, I WILL say this. The homers...I've never seen one that doesn't want the Bengals to win. The haters...I believe there are a few of them (as there are with the Reds, too) who are obsessed with prospects and drafting. They always want to rebuild and they love the aspects that come with building up a team. Once it's built, it becomes old and stale, no matter how good it is, and are always looking for a reason to tear it down. We have a few fans like this on the board.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-12-2015, 10:54 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: The hardest part is, when you try to be balanced about it both sides come at you and it is impossible to have a real discussion.

You say anything good about Dalton/Marv = you're a homer.

Say anything bad = you're a hater.

There is no in-between for some. It's not even about reality anymore. They've spent so long arguing with certain posters that they start to resent them. At that point, they stop discussing things reasonably and it becomes all about proving so-and-so wrong.