In A Showdown With The Program I Present Through

[BFritz21]

If anyone has ever been effected by suicide or lost a loved one to suicide, you may not want to read this thread. I had my own battles with thoughts of suicide, so I don't look down on them or anything. As tough as a life as I've had, I know that people fight their own battles that I can't even imagine.

I've been presenting to high schools, public and private, for over fifteen years and have never had a problem with mentioning God or my thoughts on suicide.

The God part is never an issue because it's not coming from the school and it's just my thoughts on God and how I struggled with God's existence and feeling like He hated me, so it's not like I'm preaching or anything.

When I first started with this program, the ladies in charge took my presentation and butchered it to fit their liking and it just sounded stupid and like nothing kids could relate to. As the years have gone on, if they needed me to make a specialized version of my presentation to fit the crowd or the situation, I have done so, but they always just do it themselves and then say they needed it by a certain deadline. Their versions always sound stupid. Keep in mind that none of these ladies majored in communications or anything of the sort in college that would qualify them as experts on public speaking.

Kids always stay after to ask more questions, tell me how much my presentation meant to them, get selfies, and whatever else, so it's obviously well-received. I also continually get asked to the same schools every year and then also new schools.

After 17 years, for the first time, a student at a public school complained that my story says suicide is selfish and taking the easy way out, and then also complained about how my presentation ends with Pascal's Wager (if you live your live like there is a God and there turns out to be no God, what do you lose? If you live your life like there is no God and there turns out to be a God, you spend eternity paying for it) and about my struggles with God in general. They also want me to take out that "everyone suffers. The whole point of life is to suffer, It's what we do in that suffering that makes us human."

How is suicide not selfish and how is it not taking the easy way out? Selfish in saying that your problems are so great that you don't mind hurting your friends and family to get out of your own suffering, and taking the easy way out because death is easier than facing your problems.

Basically, they want to butcher my presentation and offered a bunch of alternatives that sound stupid, are spoon feeding kids, and just don't address real life situations.

I basically refused to take make the changes they requested (I said I would take out Pascal's Wager when I present to public schools, even though it's never a problem), to which she responded that she wasn't expecting that response from me and she basically assumed I'd roll over and let her control what I do, so now she's going to stop giving me programs until she meets with me to resolve this.

The schools always request me, not the other way around, and the program always sends someone to present on the anatomy and things like that, which it's usually to a Health class, so they'd be learning about that stuff anyways. My point is that I'm not going to be held hostage by them and, if they want to kick me out of the program for not changing, that's fine because I'll just email the schools on my own and set them up without the program. If they contact the schools and lie about why I'm not presenting with the organization anymore, that's fine because I'll just sue the program.

Like I said, teachers love having me in and request me year after year, and never have had a problem, and now they're trying to edit my entire presentation because of those things.

I'd love to meet with the student and ask her what she disagrees with in regards to the suicide part because she said that people were sad because they had family members who had committed suicide. Ok, so doesn't that just prove my point that it's selfish?

I feel like kids are coddled way too much these days and it doesn't prepare them for real life.

I'm preparing myself for every point that they'll try to make. I already countered all their points in an email so they just said "we're going to meet about this," instead of just admitting I was right and they'll just throw out bullshit in the meeting and attempt to intimidate me.

Sorry for the venting but I had to get that off my chest.

[BFritz21]

Also, I think I forgot to mention that even the teacher she emailed said that he didn't think I crossed any lines.

[Benton]

A friends of mine's daughter committed suicide last year. She was 15. She needed help. She wasn't bullied, was very loved, well-liked, active in a couple different activities and by all accounts "well-rounded." Mentally, though, something wasn't right, apparently.

I don't think it's fair to call it selfish, any more than it's selfish to be an alcoholic, a narcissist, obsessive-compulsive, schizophrenic or any other of a several dozen psychological diseases. Whatever it is that causes some folks to suffer abnormally, I don't know. But I wouldn't define it as "selfishness." Being selfish is taking the last cookie even though your stomach is full and there's other's who haven't had one. Selfish is two parents working 40 hours a week, but one thinking the other one should deal with all the responsibilities. Selfish is a kid having two toys that are borrowed and only being able to play with one, while another doesn't have one to borrow.

[SunsetBengal]

Brad, I think that you need to choose between continuing to get paid, by altering your message, or standing firm by your principals and not continuing to present. Because that is what it will eventually come down to.

I hate to put it in those sort of terms, because I respect you and the message that you present. But, in today's political climate, you're going to face increased instances where someone will find something about what you are saying, and say that it offends them.

[BonnieBengal]

I do have a family member who committed suicide and I agree with you. In her case I don’t believe she was selfish. She was extremely mentally ill and delusional. But your program sounds great to me. I think your comments on God are spot on.


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[BFritz21]

(02-16-2019, 09:58 PM)Benton Wrote: A friends of mine's daughter committed suicide last year. She was 15. She needed help. She wasn't bullied, was very loved, well-liked, active in a couple different activities and by all accounts "well-rounded." Mentally, though, something wasn't right, apparently.

I don't think it's fair to call it selfish, any more than it's selfish to be an alcoholic, a narcissist, obsessive-compulsive, schizophrenic or any other of a several dozen psychological diseases. Whatever it is that causes some folks to suffer abnormally, I don't know. But I wouldn't define it as "selfishness." Being selfish is taking the last cookie even though your stomach is full and there's other's who haven't had one. Selfish is two parents working 40 hours a week, but one thinking the other one should deal with all the responsibilities. Selfish is a kid having two toys that are borrowed and only being able to play with one, while another doesn't have one to borrow.

My apologies and sympathies to your daughter.  

In that case, I agree, the mental disease can be rough and cause a person to not think clearly and take drastic actions like suicide, which is tragic.  Again, you and they have my sympathy.  

What I'm referring to, though, and is what my presentation refers to as wanting to end it to get out of my suffering, is that suicide is taking the easy way out.  I may be brain damaged, but, for the most part, I was all with it and just wanted suicide as a way out and to get away from my suffering.

Take for instance my friend, Kevin Martella: anyone in Greater Cincinnati might remember when his dad was found guilty of stealing $100,000 worth of cigarettes and then killed himself to avoid the consequences.  That is taking the easy way out, rather than dealing with your problems.  His son, my friend, later killed himself, which further proves how selfish it was for his old man to kill himself.

(02-16-2019, 10:03 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Brad, I think that you need to choose between continuing to get paid, by altering your message, or standing firm by your principals and not continuing to present.  Because that is what it will eventually come down to.  

I hate to put it in those sort of terms, because I respect you and the message that you present.  But, in today's political climate, you're going to face increased instances where someone will find something about what you are saying, and say that it offends them.

Yep.  I'm thinking of either just stating before or after my presentation that all suicides are different and not all can be considered taking the easy way out, or just bending over and letting them rewrite my presentation but only using that copy for when I present through them.  

I'd feel like such a sell-out, though, but I guess sometimes in life that's what has to be done.  

(02-16-2019, 10:21 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: I do have a family member who committed suicide and I agree with you. In her case I don’t believe she was selfish. She was extremely mentally ill and delusional. But your program sounds great to me. I think your comments on God are spot on.


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See, that's different because being mentally ill or delusional isn't the same as just not wanting to fight and not caring what your suicide will do to other people.  I know some people do it because they think people around them will be better off, but it only takes one person to wish you hadn't done it to make it a selfish act.

You do have my sympathies, though, and I hope that she has found peace and I hope that your family has, also.

[BonnieBengal]

(02-17-2019, 01:54 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: My apologies and sympathies to your daughter.  

In that case, I agree, the mental disease can be rough and cause a person to not think clearly and take drastic actions like suicide, which is tragic.  Again, you and they have my sympathy.  

What I'm referring to, though, and is what my presentation refers to as wanting to end it to get out of my suffering, is that suicide is taking the easy way out.  I may be brain damaged, but, for the most part, I was all with it and just wanted suicide as a way out and to get away from my suffering.

Take for instance my friend, Kevin Martella: anyone in Greater Cincinnati might remember when his dad was found guilty of stealing $100,000 worth of cigarettes and then killed himself to avoid the consequences.  That is taking the easy way out, rather than dealing with your problems.  His son, my friend, later killed himself, which further proves how selfish it was for his old man to kill himself.

Yep.  I'm thinking of either just stating before or after my presentation that all suicides are different and not all can be considered taking the easy way out, or just bending over and letting them rewrite my presentation but only using that copy for when I present through them.  

I'd feel like such a sell-out, though, but I guess sometimes in life that's what has to be done.  


See, that's different because being mentally ill or delusional isn't the same as just not wanting to fight and not caring what your suicide will do to other people.  I know some people do it because they think people around them will be better off, but it only takes one person to wish you hadn't done it to make it a selfish act.

You do have my sympathies, though, and I hope that she has found peace and I hope that your family has, also.

Thank you and I agree with you. I do think suicide is selfish in most cases.

  

[fredtoast]

(02-17-2019, 01:54 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: See, that's different because being mentally ill or delusional isn't the same as just not wanting to fight and not caring what your suicide will do to other people. 

No.  That is exactly the way people with clinical depression think.

(02-17-2019, 01:54 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: I know some people do it because they think people around them will be better off, but it only takes one person to wish you hadn't done it to make it a selfish act.

I strongly disagree with this.  If I was a vegetable and the financial burden I placed on my family kept my little brother from attending college and achieving his goals in life then I might kill myself.  Maybe some people don't think they are so amazing that everyone else's life should be devoted to taking care of them instead of having their own life.  And if my older brother was a vegetable who committed suicide so that I could pursue my dreams in life I sure as hell would not want to hear him called a weak coward.

I an sure you did not intended this, but I can see how your comments could sound like you just bragging about how great you are for not "Taking the easy way out." People who had mentally ill friends or family who killed themselves or dealt with situations where the suicide was a sacrifice for the better of others would be highly offended by your comments. 

[6andcounting]

Not saying you literally say exactly this, but as an example instead of saying "suicide is selfish" say "the feelings of my family weighed on me an influenced me to believe I needed to be there for them. In my own thoughts and decisioning, suicide felt like a selfish way to cope and ultimately decided against it." This way you aren't passing judgement on those who committed suicide and not speaking broadly on behalf of every who has suicidal thoughts. You would be speaking strictly on your own thoughts and life experiences.

[Benton]

(02-17-2019, 01:54 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: My apologies and sympathies to your daughter.  

In that case, I agree, the mental disease can be rough and cause a person to not think clearly and take drastic actions like suicide, which is tragic.  Again, you and they have my sympathy.  

.

No harm, but just to clarify, it was a friend's daughter, not my own. 

[HarleyDog]

Although I have very strong thoughts on both these matters, I will restrain my debating comments for now. But I have a question for you, and maybe i’m Wrong, but isn’t your presentation supposed to be about drunk driving? If so, then maybe you should leave Your opinion on religion and suicide out of it. Your knowledge of either topic is only based on your personal thoughts and opinions, and unless I’m wrong again, you are not professionally qualified to speak on either. I hope you read this as an opinion and not an attack because it’s not what’s intended. I respect what you do and the courage you’ve mustered to get to this point. Please never forget why your there

[George Cantstandya]

Suicide is a very complex subject. There are many factors that can lead one to suicide and the biggest is mental health issues. It isn't always about taking the easy way out. It is more about not getting the care needed to help the person before it is too late. For example suicide among military veterans has been a huge issue for a long time. Some of the toughest people that fought like hell to stay alive in war zones come home and kill themselves years later. It's extremely sad to see that happening. In many cases people that commit suicide didn't receive the treatment they needed to deal with their mental health or psychological issues. It often isn't a simple case of, "I feel sad today so I'm going to kill myself to ease the pain." Many that do commit suicide have major underlying issues that often go untreated.

It may seem like the person made a conscious choice, a selfish act, but in many instances it was a mental health issue that wasn't treated by professionals. In a lot of cases it was because the person was never properly diagnosed, or never sought treatment or could not follow through with treatment for one reason or another. In other cases it was because the healthcare system failed them. Suicide isn't always, "I give up, I don't give a darn about anyone, so screw it." It is more often linked to serious and untreated mental health issues and much more complex than, "taking the easy way out."

[SunsetBengal]

(02-17-2019, 01:54 AM)BFritz21 Wrote: Yep.  I'm thinking of either just stating before or after my presentation that all suicides are different and not all can be considered taking the easy way out, or just bending over and letting them rewrite my presentation but only using that copy for when I present through them.  

I'd feel like such a sell-out, though, but I guess sometimes in life that's what has to be done.  

Brad, there's no need to feel like a "sell-out".  Times change, and so does public opinion on topics and verbiage for delivery.  As a public speaker, you need to make it your job to keep your message current;  just like a minister must freshen his sermons, so that it isn't just the same canned lines over and over, so must you keep retooling your presentation to fit the audiences that you're presenting to.  

Perhaps instead of putting the emphasis of "suicide is selfish" on the victim that took their own life, maybe you illustrate that by interviewing some suicide survivors and telling the story through their eyes.  Just as public opinion changes with the time, you must also keep your method of delivery fluid, so that your message is being received by the audience, rather than rejected.

[BFritz21]

(02-17-2019, 05:29 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: Although I have very strong thoughts on both these matters, I will restrain my debating comments for now. But I have a question for you, and maybe i’m Wrong, but isn’t your presentation supposed to be about drunk driving? If so, then maybe you should leave Your opinion on religion and suicide out of it. Your knowledge of either topic is only based on your personal thoughts and opinions, and unless I’m wrong again, you are not professionally qualified to speak on either. I hope you read this as an opinion and not an attack because it’s not what’s intended. I respect what you do and the courage you’ve mustered to get to this point. Please never forget why your there

I'm not ignoring all of the other posts but just figured I could address this one.

It is about drunk driving and making smart decisions, but there's also other messages because, while I started recovering, my story goes through my battles with thinking God was punishing me and growing angry with Him, and then wanting to kill myself to end all my suffering.

You can see an outline (the text and some pictures) of my PowerPoint presentation on my website at bradfritz.org.

[BFritz21]

(02-17-2019, 04:57 PM)6andcounting Wrote: Not saying you literally say exactly this, but as an example instead of saying "suicide is selfish" say "the feelings of my family weighed on me an influenced me to believe I needed to be there for them. In my own thoughts and decisioning, suicide felt like a selfish way to cope and ultimately decided against it."  This way you aren't passing judgement on those who committed suicide and not speaking broadly on behalf of every who has suicidal thoughts. You would be speaking strictly on your own thoughts and life experiences.

The one lady recommended that I changed it to "I was raised learning to believe that suicide is taking the easy way out," and "the only thing that kept me taking my own life was believing that it's......." so it doesn't sound like I'm condemning it.  Then, I could even offer a disclaimer before or after that says "these are just my thoughts on suicide but that doesn't mean that they're right or that they're true for all suicides."

(02-17-2019, 06:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Brad, there's no need to feel like a "sell-out".  Times change, and so does public opinion on topics and verbiage for delivery.  As a public speaker, you need to make it your job to keep your message current;  just like a minister must freshen his sermons, so that it isn't just the same canned lines over and over, so must you keep retooling your presentation to fit the audiences that you're presenting to.  

Perhaps instead of putting the emphasis of "suicide is selfish" on the victim that took their own life, maybe you illustrate that by interviewing some suicide survivors and telling the story through their eyes.  Just as public opinion changes with the time, you must also keep your method of delivery fluid, so that your message is being received by the audience, rather than rejected.

I almost want to go to the girl that complained and just ask her "so your grandpa decided to kill himself rather than facing life, so how is that not taking the easy way out?  And I assume your family and his friends were sad, so how is him choosing paint and sorrow to his family and friends to end his own suffering not selfish?"

That's kind of bold and seems cruel, but it's the truth, and my thoughts about suicide have caused many kids to tell me that it has stopped them from taking their own lives.

[*michaelsean*]

fredtoast Wrote:If I was a vegetable and the financial burden I placed on my family kept my little brother from attending college and achieving his goals in life then I might kill myself.

???

[Au165]

(02-17-2019, 11:03 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I almost want to go to the girl that complained and just ask her "so your grandpa decided to kill himself rather than facing life, so how is that not taking the easy way out?  And I assume your family and his friends were sad, so how is him choosing paint and sorrow to his family and friends to end his own suffering not selfish?"

...that would have been the end of your speaking career. Good call on not doing that. 

[BFritz21]

(02-18-2019, 01:51 PM)Au165 Wrote: ...that would have been the end of your speaking career. Good call on not doing that. 

Why?  Because kids are coddled and sheltered?

Because we're not allowed to ask real questions anymore?

[treee]

(02-18-2019, 04:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Why?  Because kids are coddled and sheltered?

Because we're not allowed to ask real questions anymore?

If you sincerely can't understand why that would be a horrible thing to say to another person, then perhaps its best you don't give presentations to children.

[fredtoast]

(02-18-2019, 04:48 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Why?  Because kids are coddled and sheltered?

Because we're not allowed to ask real questions anymore?

No.  Because multiple people here have identified situations where suicide was not about "being selfish".  So it probably would not be a good idea to start attacking people who disagree with you on this point.

Are you also going to line up the family member of the thousands of ex-military men who are committing suicide every day and tell them how all those guys were weak cowards and not as great as you are because you didn't take the easy way out?

You have suffered a lot physically Brad, but there are a lot of things you still don't understand.  You have never promised a wife or children that you would support them.  You have never been traumatized by war.  You have never suffered from mental illness.  

I really don't think you are as big of an expert on life and suicide as you think.  So if you do want to talk about suicide just make sure you talk about people in your specific situation and don't make broad generalizations about things you don't understand.