In A Showdown With The Program I Present Through

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes you are.

In my presentation, I'm talking about facing the struggle in my life when I'm perfectly able and just feeling like God hated me, so how is that comparable?

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because now she does not have to suffer with a mentally ill husband?


Honestly I have no idea how she feels in her heart, but neither do you.  

A lot of people have mental illness and live perfectly happy lives, even if some have to be on medication.

He was mentally ill, so how much less did she love him than the day she married him?  Isn't that in the wedding vows?  "Through thick and thin" and all that?  

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 03:43 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Killing themself rather than taking on life's problems is not taking the easy way out?  I realize that it's not an easy decision, but they wouldn't do it if it wasn't the easy way out. 

Actually it would be much easier to lay around and have people take care of you all day than kill yourself.

Unless you cared about your loved ones and the burden you were to them.

It seems we have reached a point where we are just going in circles where you say it is "this" and I say it is "that".  I don't see any point in debating it any more.  I just hope you will think about all the Vets, mentally ill, and elderly invalids who kill themselves before you make any more broad generalizations in your presentations.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 04:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: In my presentation, I'm talking about facing the struggle in my life when I'm perfectly able and just feeling like God hated me, so how is that comparable?

I have no idea.  Why did you want to argue with the girl about how selfish her grandfather was?

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Generally a parent committing suicide does not cause a child to do it.  I'd guess it was more a situation of a mental illness shared by father and son.

What was the sons name?  Did he leave a note saying why he committed suicide?

Kevin Martella.  

He became destructive after his father killed himself with doing things like drinking heavily and even drinking and driving when he had been a perfectly normal kid before that, so you don't think that this caused him to do it?

He also did it in the same hotel (maybe the same room) that his dad did it in, so I feel pretty positive when I say that he wouldn't have done it if his dad hadn't.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It would not be about my guilt.  It would be about relieving my loved ones of a burden.   I would be doing it for them instead of me.

I know they would be sad, but I also know they would be better off without me in the long run.  No one lives forever so they are going to suffer my loss at some point anyway.

That's selfish.  You believe that they would be better in the long run but (1) you don't know that and (2) is that worth the enormous amounts of pain that they'll feel immediately and likely for the rest of their lives?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 04:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: A lot of people have mental illness and live perfectly happy lives, even if some have to be on medication.

Yeah, right.  They are so happy they kill themselves.

You clearly do not understand this issue at all.

(02-19-2019, 04:39 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: He was mentally ill, so how much less did she love him than the day she married him?  Isn't that in the wedding vows?  "Through thick and thin" and all that?  

I have no idea how much she loved him.  But it does not matter because she did not leave him.

Are you seriously saying she should have never re-married and had a happy life after her husband killed himself?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: That's selfish.  You believe that they would be better in the long run but (1) you don't know that and (2) is that worth the enormous amounts of pain that they'll feel immediately and likely for the rest of their lives?

1.  I do know that they would have less of a burden and be better off without me.

2.  I realize they would be sad at the loss, but people move on.  They don't mourn for their entire life.  So in the long run they would be better off.


The problem may be that you have such an over inflated opinion of yourself that you can not imagine anyone ever being happy again if you were gone.  I realize that people would be sad if I died, but I also realize that they will move on with their lives and do lots of happy things instead of crying about me every day forever.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have never understood this argument.

If there is a God do you think he will be satisfied if I tell him "I never really believed in you but I pretended to."  Wouldn't God be able to look into my heart while I was alive and see that I was lying all along?  Isn't that the whole point of "Just living a good life will not get you into heaven."

Treating people right and obeying God's laws out of fear will get you into Heaven, even if you don't believe in him.

If you don't believe in the laws of the legal system, do you think a judge is going to find you guilty of something you didn't do just because you say "I don't believe that this is a bullshit law"?

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Actually it would be much easier to lay around and have people take care of you all day than kill yourself.

Unless you cared about your loved ones and the burden you were to them.

It seems we have reached a point where we are just going in circles where you say it is "this" and I say it is "that".  I don't see any point in debating it any more.  I just hope you will think about all the Vets, mentally ill, and elderly invalids who kill themselves before you make any more broad generalizations in your presentations.

Once again, you're taking it out of context to fit your lack of argument.

I'm not talking about someone in a vegetative state or who can't move, but rather someone who just decides that they'd rather kill themselves than face life.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yeah, right.  They are so happy they kill themselves.

You clearly do not understand this issue at all.

A mental illness doesn't mean someone is unhappy or that they can't be medicated to fix it.

You clearly make things up and then post with empty rhetoric.

(02-19-2019, 04:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have no idea how much she loved him.  But it does not matter because she did not leave him.

Are you seriously saying she should have never re-married and had a happy life after her husband killed himself?

I am saying that she might have been happier if he hadn't killed himself.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 04:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Treating people right and obeying God's laws out of fear will get you into Heaven, even if you don't believe in him.

But if I don't believe then there will be no fear involved.

I was taught that I had to accept Jesus as my savior and ask for forgiveness for my sins before I could get into heaven.  I did not know I could just pretend and still get in.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 05:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: A mental illness doesn't mean someone is unhappy or that they can't be medicated to fix it.

Then why do so many people with clinical depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder kill themselves?

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 05:00 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: I am saying that she might have been happier if he hadn't killed himself.

And I am saying you have no clue.

All we know is that she is happily married now and does not have to deal with a depressed mentally ill husband.

[*michaelsean*]

(02-19-2019, 04:54 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Treating people right and obeying God's laws out of fear will get you into Heaven, even if you don't believe in him.

If you don't believe in the laws of the legal system, do you think a judge is going to find you guilty of something you didn't do just because you say "I don't believe that this is a bullshit law"?

At the risk of having this moved, and I'll delete it if that's the case, why do you believe in a God that makes it possible to fail and uses fear to motivate you?  Who would throw you down to Earth knowing absolutely nothing, and say, "Figure it our or else.  I love you, but I will torture you for all eternity if you don't.  Oh and make sure you keep telling me how awesome I am.  I'm a bit of an egotistical tyrant.  And I hope you were born to parents who chose the right belief system or your done before you start."  It's insanity.  Read something like "Conversations With God".  I don't know if it's real.  It certainly seems like it would be hard to make up, but either way, it makes a lot more sense.  And there's plenty more besides those books.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 05:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: But if I don't believe then there will be no fear involved.

I was taught that I had to accept Jesus as my savior and ask for forgiveness for my sins before I could get into heaven.  I did not know I could just pretend and still get in.

Once again, you present something I'm not arguing.  I'm not saying pretend.  I'm saying live like a decent person should because you fear possible consequence.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do so many people with clinical depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder kill themselves?

Because they don't seek the proper help and they'd rather kill themself than face life.

Once again, empty rhetoric.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 05:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And I am saying you have no clue.

All we know is that she is happily married now and does not have to deal with a depressed mentally ill husband.

And neither do you.

You're assuming things and taking the easy argument and assuming the worst.

[fredtoast]

(02-19-2019, 06:05 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Once again, you present something I'm not arguing.  I'm not saying pretend.  I'm saying live like a decent person should because you fear possible consequence.

Then your argument makes no sense.  People who do not believe in God don't go around committing bad acts that they have to "pay for" anymore than people who do believe in god.

[BFritz21]

(02-19-2019, 05:49 PM)michaelsean Wrote: At the risk of having this moved, and I'll delete it if that's the case, why do you believe in a God that makes it possible to fail and uses fear to motivate you?  Who would throw you down to Earth knowing absolutely nothing, and say, "Figure it our or else.  I love you, but I will torture you for all eternity if you don't.  Oh and make sure you keep telling me how awesome I am.  I'm a bit of an egotistical tyrant.  And I hope you were born to parents who chose the right belief system or your done before you start."  It's insanity.  Read something like "Conversations With God".  I don't know if it's real.  It certainly seems like it would be hard to make up, but either way, it makes a lot more sense.  And there's plenty more besides those books.

God sent his Son to save us from our sins.

There is also a moral sense of what is right that is imbedded in a person, and that's from God.