Josh Rosen

[THE PISTONS]

(03-05-2019, 03:07 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Why do people think this is a good thing? A QB who can't put touch on the ball can easily result in a lot of incompleted passes because the receivers can't make the catch. I remember seeing this a lot with Palmer. He would throw a bullet to a receiver who wasn't even 10 yards out and then get mad they didn't catch it. Blame the receivers all you want, but it's not always easy catching a ball that's thrown like a rocket.

I like his mobility and throwing...but he does need coached up a lot. Buffalo's offense is devoid of weapons.

Put him on say the Rams and I think he's pretty successful.

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: It was actually one of the knocks on Josh Allen last year was that he couldn't change up his speeds. I was heater all day and the issue is on a drag or a hitch that heater can fly through a WR's hand and end up an INT. Knowing how to change the pall velocity is a big deal. 

It's a helluva lot easier to develop touch than it is to grow a better arm.  That is what coaching is for.

I'd be all for taking Tyree in the third, if he lasts that long and letting the three QB coaches on our staff turn him into our next QB in a couple years.  You can't teach that Big Ben size and you can't teach that arm.

[Joelist]

Lamar Jackson has the same issue - lack of touch on passes. And lack of accuracy in general - Terrell Pryor II.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 03:15 PM)McC Wrote: It's a helluva lot easier to develop touch than it is to grow a better arm.  That is what coaching is for.

I'd be all for taking Tyree in the third, if he lasts that long and letting the three QB coaches on our staff turn him into our next QB in a couple years.  You can't teach that Big Ben size and you can't teach that arm.

There have been tons of guys with big arms, there is  reason they aren't around anymore....it's because they lacked touch. Easy to love the 50 yard throws, but you will make more 5 yard throws in the NFL than 50. Touch is 100% more important than strength.

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:19 PM)Joelist Wrote: Lamar Jackson has the same issue - lack of touch on passes. And lack of accuracy in general - Terrell Pryor II.

If a guy can become a better hitter with practice, become a better shooter by shooting lots of shots, a better golfer with more swings, etc., why can't a guy become more accurate with endless throwing?  I don't buy the myth that if you're not accurate, you never can or will be.  There are few things to which the old adage practice makes perfect do not apply.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 03:09 PM)Au165 Wrote: It was actually one of the knocks on Josh Allen last year was that he couldn't change up his speeds. I was heater all day and the issue is on a drag or a hitch that heater can fly through a WR's hand and end up an INT. Knowing how to change the pall velocity is a big deal. 

Exactly. It's one of the reasons I didn't (and still don't) care for Josh Allen, along with his lackluster accuracy.

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:24 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Exactly. It's one of the reasons I didn't (and still don't) care for Josh Allen, along with his lackluster accuracy.

So if you're not accurate at 22, you never can be?  Improvement is an impossibility?

For proof against the lie, I give you Sandy Koufax:

https://imaginesports.com/news/life-career-sandy-koufax

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 03:24 PM)McC Wrote: If a guy can become a better hitter with practice, become a better shooter by shooting lots of shots, a better golfer with more swings, etc., why can't a guy become more accurate with endless throwing?  I don't buy the myth that if you're not accurate, you never can or will be.  There are few things to which the old adage practice makes perfect do not apply.

Wouldn't this be counter intuitive to the history of 1st round busts at QB we have seen in the last 15 years? 

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 03:29 PM)McC Wrote: So if you're not accurate at 22, you never can be?  Improvement is an impossibility?

For proof against the lie, I give you Sandy Koufax:

https://imaginesports.com/news/life-career-sandy-koufax

Was Sandy Koufax throwing at moving targets? The issue is these targets are moving and so are you in terms of inside the pocket. Guys who can't keep their mechanics together during these changes struggle and the problem is a lot of these mechanical issues are hard to break.

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:30 PM)Au165 Wrote: Wouldn't this be counter intuitive to the history of 1st round busts at QB we have seen in the last 15 years? 

How many of those have been accuracy issues?  Seems like no nads, no brains, no heart, no will, laziness, over drafted accounts for the vast majority.

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: Was Sandy Koufax throwing at moving targets? The issue is these targets are moving and so are you in terms of inside the pocket. Guys who can't keep their mechanics together during these changes struggle and the problem is a lot of these mechanical issues are hard to break.

If you're gonna just ignore the point, we will struggle to have a reasonable conversation.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 03:32 PM)McC Wrote: How many of those have been accuracy issues?  Seems like no nads, no brains, no heart, no will, laziness, over drafted accounts for the vast majority.

These are all cliches. It's almost always accuracy or issues reading a defense. Most guys don't go in the 1st if they flat out can't read a defense, some exceptions.

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 03:33 PM)McC Wrote: If you're gonna just ignore the point, we will struggle to have a reasonable conversation.

If you bring baseball in and compare it's skills to football skills your in over your head chief.

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 03:29 PM)McC Wrote: So if you're not accurate at 22, you never can be?  Improvement is an impossibility?

For proof against the lie, I give you Sandy Koufax:

https://imaginesports.com/news/life-career-sandy-koufax

I didn't say that you never can be, you chose to make that assumption.
But it's definitely not easy for someone to become (much more) accurate in a short number of years.
I can't recall someone who was a sub-60% passer in college that became a mid-60%+ passer in the pros?

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:34 PM)Au165 Wrote: These are all cliches. It's almost always accuracy or issues reading a defense. Most guys don't go in the 1st if they flat out can't read a defense, some exceptions.

You consider courage and intelligence and work ethic cliches?  O-kay.

[J24]

(03-05-2019, 12:30 AM)Whatever Wrote: Flacco has had a QBR over 80 each of the last four years.  Rosen's was 66.7 last year.  Flacco probably won't affect a guy like Carr who's rumored to be on the trade block, but Rosen isn't even a "decent" QB.  Blake Bortles had a better rookie season, for pete's sake.

Rosen was just a rookie with a terrible supporting cast. He might have been bad but given the circumstances I don't think anyone would blame just him for the Cardinals performance last season. 

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 03:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I didn't say that you never can be, you chose to make that assumption.
But it's definitely not easy for someone to become (much more) accurate in a short number of years.
I can't recall someone who was a sub-60% passer in college that became a mid-60%+ passer in the pros?

It's a skill, like any other.  It's a think that can be honed.  It's utterly preposterous to think it can't be improved with determination and repetition.  I refuse to buy the ridiculous notion that a young QB cannot become a better passer if he has the desire and the right coaching.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

A guy is born with arm ability and what he does with it is up to him.  I believe this would be a QB coach's first job.  And anyway, can a 60% passer win?  **** yes.  Can and many have.

[Au165]

I bought a car for 40k last year brand new, I am now selling my car to you this year and willing to take 10k. What are the first words out of your mouth? "What's wrong with it", right? Now if that person says "Nothing I just want this newer car with cooler features", you ask yourself what? "Why does you getting a new car devalue your old car that is perfectly fine so much", right?

In the real world we all come back to the same conclusion, there is something wrong with the car. In the NFL apparently people just think others sell their one year old car "with nothing wrong with it" at pennies on the dollar. Interestingly enough, no one else ever has.....because it doesn't happen!

[*ochocincos*]

(03-05-2019, 03:42 PM)McC Wrote: It's a skill, like any other.  It's a think that can be honed.  It's utterly preposterous to think it can't be improved with determination and repetition.  I refuse to buy the ridiculous notion that a young QB cannot become a better passer if he has the desire and the right coaching.  We'll just have to agree to disagree.

A guy is born with arm ability and what he does with it is up to him.  I believe this would be a QB coach's first job.  And anyway, can a 60% passer win?  **** yes.  Can and many have.

Josh Allen isn't a 60% passer. He was a 52.8% passer. That's horrendous.
Yes, he can improve on that if he works extremely hard and has the right coaching around him, but that's not something I think is an easy skill to build. I personally would look for highly-accurate QBs over QBs with a cannon if I'm prioritizing what skills I want my QB to have.

[fortyyearfan]

(02-28-2019, 05:45 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Ok, so first of all I have always been a big Andy Dalton supporter. I think he's a guy that you can win with in the NFL and I think he's overly criticized by many in the area. I think it's pretty ludicrous to consider taking a QB in first round (and did last year as well) with as many other glaring needs this team has. Andy Dalton should be the starting QB for the Bengals next year.

BUT...

The Arizona Cardinals seem eager to part with Rosen in order to take Kyler Murray #1 this year. Josh Rosen was a first round QB taken in a year filled to the brim with highly regarded QB talent - he went top 10 last year with the Cardinals moving up to grab him. Personally I don't think it's fair to call him a bust after one year playing for an awful team under an unproven (and promptly fired) head coach. There may very well be something there in my opinion... and you should be able to buy low in order to get him. No way can the Cardinals be expecting anyone to give them a first round pick for him, right? Maybe a team with a low pick in the first round, but how many of those teams need a QB? And even if, say, the Patriots wanted to groom him, will they even have that pick after the Kraft stuff is sorted out? And then instead of burning a 1st rounder on a QB you can maybe take the White kid at LB...

SO...

Why not try to grab a first round talent for non-first round picks? Talk to the Cardinals and if you can work it out, pull the trigger. Bring him in, get a guy with a high ceiling, and then sit him behind Dalton for a year giving him a chance to learn the NFL game and prepare himself for more fair shot than he ever got in Arizona. Two seasons from now (which is Dalton's contract year, I believe), you can give him every chance to win the job, and maybe he does just that and shows you that he's the QB of the future once he hits the field. Gotta figure he'd have a huge chip on his shoulder.

Thoughts? Yes, there are a lot of ifs and maybes there, but am I crazy to think that this is something the Bengals should at least kick the tires on?

I will freely admit to not having seen Rosen play all that often in college or for the Cardinals (though like I said, I give him some leeway there for being in an unwinnable situation).

I have been reading he has an attitude and does not jell with other players much.Dude was awlful his first year and I personally do not want this guy.I would prefer we draft one that all of our coaches like and can be groomed by ZT and the staff. They will do their homework and fine who fits.I trust this staff and our draft process,besides this Rosen dude wants way too much for an already unproven QB. Just sayin, NOw back to important stuff,draft Devin White at 11.He is the top player in this draft and will be an instant day one starter and a huge difference maker.No more tightends and RBs getting 1st downs because our Lbers are slow as cold mud running. WHO-DEY.....