Josh Rosen

[Joelist]

(03-05-2019, 03:24 PM)McC Wrote: If a guy can become a better hitter with practice, become a better shooter by shooting lots of shots, a better golfer with more swings, etc., why can't a guy become more accurate with endless throwing?  I don't buy the myth that if you're not accurate, you never can or will be.  There are few things to which the old adage practice makes perfect do not apply.

You'd think so but history does not bear it out. In theory you can improve throwing accuracy but for some reason QBs with bad touch seem always to have bad touch. And Jackson's touch is epically bad. 

[Whatever]

(03-05-2019, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I bought a car for 40k last year brand new, I am now selling my car to you this year and willing to take 10k. What are the first words out of your mouth? "What's wrong with it", right? Now if that person says "Nothing I just want this newer car with cooler features", you ask yourself what? "Why does you getting a new car devalue your old car that is perfectly fine so much", right?

In the real world we all come back to the same conclusion, there is something wrong with the car. In the NFL apparently people just think others sell their one year old car "with nothing wrong with it" at pennies on the dollar. Interestingly enough, no one else ever has.....because it doesn't happen!

The problem is your 31 neighbors see you fogging for mosquitoes every time you take that 40k car out of the garage.  Enough film on Rosen exists for everyone to know he sucks.  I mean, he had a 66 QBR last year.  By comparison, Driskel had an 82.  That first round pick Arizona spent is just sunk cost at this point.  Everyone knows he's not worth what they paid.

[J24]

(03-05-2019, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I bought a car for 40k last year brand new, I am now selling my car to you this year and willing to take 10k. What are the first words out of your mouth? "What's wrong with it", right? Now if that person says "Nothing I just want this newer car with cooler features", you ask yourself what? "Why does you getting a new car devalue your old car that is perfectly fine so much", right?

In the real world we all come back to the same conclusion, there is something wrong with the car. In the NFL apparently people just think others sell their one year old car "with nothing wrong with it" at pennies on the dollar. Interestingly enough, no one else ever has.....because it doesn't happen!

Who says their just selling Rosen for pennies? Also a car loses like 30% of it's value once it's driven off the lot. 

[RunKijanaRun]

(03-05-2019, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I bought a car for 40k last year brand new, I am now selling my car to you this year and willing to take 10k. What are the first words out of your mouth? "What's wrong with it", right? Now if that person says "Nothing I just want this newer car with cooler features", you ask yourself what? "Why does you getting a new car devalue your old car that is perfectly fine so much", right?

In the real world we all come back to the same conclusion, there is something wrong with the car. In the NFL apparently people just think others sell their one year old car "with nothing wrong with it" at pennies on the dollar. Interestingly enough, no one else ever has.....because it doesn't happen!

Have you ever bought a new car? Do you have any idea how much depreciation takes place after just one year? It's not 75%, like in your hypothetical, but the value decreases notably, for no other reason than the car is one year older and therefore no longer brand new. 

In many circumstances, yes, the car in question may be a lemon (Rosen). But in transactions like your example there does not have to be anything implicitly wrong with the car for the diminished value to occur. 

[*ochocincos*]

Maybe Josh Rosen doesn't fit the scheme that their new coaches are looking to implement, whereas Murray might fit it rather well?
Not every player fits well into every scheme. That's just a fact.

[*Nately120*]

(03-05-2019, 03:29 PM)McC Wrote: So if you're not accurate at 22, you never can be?  Improvement is an impossibility?

For proof against the lie, I give you Sandy Koufax:

https://imaginesports.com/news/life-career-sandy-koufax

Sandy Koufax is also proof that Jews are amazing athletes. 

[McC]

(03-05-2019, 07:45 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Sandy Koufax is also proof that Jews are amazing athletes. 

He was proof that a Jew could be an amazing athlete.

[*Nately120*]

(03-05-2019, 03:52 PM)Au165 Wrote: I bought a car for 40k last year brand new, I am now selling my car to you this year and willing to take 10k. What are the first words out of your mouth? "What's wrong with it", right? Now if that person says "Nothing I just want this newer car with cooler features", you ask yourself what? "Why does you getting a new car devalue your old car that is perfectly fine so much", right?

In the real world we all come back to the same conclusion, there is something wrong with the car. In the NFL apparently people just think others sell their one year old car "with nothing wrong with it" at pennies on the dollar. Interestingly enough, no one else ever has.....because it doesn't happen!

I'm not convinced Rosen is awesome, but it is also possible that Kingsbury is making a blunder by chucking him at a loss so he can get a QB he wants.

I don't get all the faith in this rookie HC being right with this move.  Sometimes people sell stuff at a loss because of extenuating circumstances and/or good ol stupidity.  

[Au165]

(03-05-2019, 06:21 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Have you ever bought a new car? Do you have any idea how much depreciation takes place after just one year? It's not 75%, like in your hypothetical, but the value decreases notably, for no other reason than the car is one year older and therefore no longer brand new. 

In many circumstances, yes, the car in question may be a lemon (Rosen). But in transactions like your example there does not have to be anything implicitly wrong with the car for the diminished value to occur. 

All I buy are new cars, it’s not anywhere near 75% lol. You know what goes up in value? Classic cars. Franchise QBs are classic cars not depreciating assets. Josh Rosen isn’t a classic car, he is a lemon.

[Bengalbug]

Brett Favre was traded after year one... albeit for a 1st

Young was traded by the bucs who thought he was a bust for a 2 and a 4.



Not saying Rosen is HOF but it’s happened.

[RunKijanaRun]

(03-05-2019, 07:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: All I buy are new cars, it’s not anywhere near 75% lol. You know what goes up in value? Classic cars. Franchise QBs are classic cars not depreciating assets. Josh Rosen isn’t a classic car, he is a lemon.

Well, I think we're troubling the hell out of this metaphor, so I'm going to let it die, as I'm not sure anyone's making the points they think they are. 

[Catmandude123]

This may be Arizona trying to get some other team to trade up to get Murray. Getting a second and maybe a third rounder and another teams first instead of Bosa would help them fill two or three spots. There will be a lot of deals come trade day.

[lone bengal]

Have to trust Tobin and Taylor if they believe he has a higher celling than Dalton and you can get him at a reasonable price you pull the trigger. Maybe a team like Washington would want Dalton in a trade to team up with Gruden. You would have the benefit of having Rosen on a rookie deal for 3 more years with a fifth year option. Dalton’s contract is coming up soon and we need money to resign guys like Green, Boyd and Willam Jackson III in the near future. If we draft an OT at 11 and Price plays like a 1st round pick we would have two 1st round picks on the O-line under Rookie contracts along with a qb and young weapons in Mixon and Boyd and perhaps Ross. I would spend money on a young free agent LB like Barr, Hicks, Mosley or Alexander. It’s time for a youth movement. The secondary has some young good pieces in Jackson and Bates and a young free agent LB in his prime would help the linebacker group and we have young guys up front like Hubbard and Lawson.

[*Nately120*]

(03-05-2019, 05:12 PM)Whatever Wrote: The problem is your 31 neighbors see you fogging for mosquitoes every time you take that 40k car out of the garage.  Enough film on Rosen exists for everyone to know he sucks.  I mean, he had a 66 QBR last year.  By comparison, Driskel had an 82.  That first round pick Arizona spent is just sunk cost at this point.  Everyone knows he's not worth what they paid.

Interesting how we have a thread concluding that Rosen is a bust after 1 year on the same board where we are excited about John Ross finally getting a chance to succeed 

[McC]

(03-06-2019, 02:24 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Have to trust Tobin and Taylor if they believe he has a higher celling than Dalton and you can get him at a reasonable price you pull the trigger. Maybe a team like Washington would want Dalton in a trade to team up with Gruden.  You would have the benefit of having Rosen on a rookie deal for 3 more years with a fifth year option. Dalton’s contract is coming up soon and we  need money to resign guys like Green, Boyd and Willam Jackson III in the near future. If we draft an OT at 11 and Price plays like a 1st round pick we would have two 1st round picks on the O-line under Rookie contracts along with a qb and young weapons in Mixon and Boyd and perhaps Ross. I would spend money on a young free agent LB like Barr, Hicks, Mosley or Alexander. It’s time for a youth movement. The secondary has some young good pieces in Jackson and Bates and a young free agent LB  in his prime would help the linebacker group and we have young guys up front like Hubbard and Lawson.

I guess the question in this scenario is how much you are itching to take a step backwards in the new coach's rookie year.

[lone bengal]

(03-06-2019, 02:49 PM)McC Wrote: I guess the question in this scenario is how much you are itching to take a step backwards in the new coach's rookie year.

I’m willing to give Taylor some time to bring in his own players and implement his system which might take a season. If the Bengals don’t make the playoffs next season alot of fans will probably freak out and say Taylor was a bad hire but I would say to them let’s give him some time. It will probably take him a season to get things going. If a coach dosent show improvement in year two or three that’s when I would start to get nervous. Always thought it was stupid to fire a coach after one or two seasons , the coach has no chance to implement his system. I think I will be more relaxed watching the games this season and more understandable of some mistakes because I know there will be growing pains. Watching last season was infuriating because the head coach was in his 16th season and still couldn’t get it done.

[McC]

(03-06-2019, 03:10 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I’m willing to give Taylor some time to bring in his own players and implement his system which might take a season. If the Bengals don’t make the playoffs next season alot of fans will probably freak out and say Taylor was a bad hire but I would say to them let’s give him some time. It will probably take him a season to get things going. If a coach dosent show improvement in year two or three that’s when I would start to get nervous. Always thought it was stupid to fire a coach after one or two seasons , the coach  has no chance to implement his system. I think I will be more relaxed watching the games this season and more understandable of some mistakes because I know there will be growing pains. Watching last season was infuriating because the head coach was in his 16th season and still couldn’t get it done.

Can't disagree with any of this in a vacuum, but how about putting the butts back in the seats?  I'm thinking this is high priority at this time for this franchise.

[lone bengal]

(03-06-2019, 02:42 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Interesting how we have a thread concluding that Rosen is a bust after 1 year on the same board where we are excited about John Ross finally getting a chance to succeed 

Agreed can’t just judge Rosen on the raw numbers he was in a terrible situation. If you watch his rookie tape and say this guy can’t make the correct reads or dosent have the accuracy or arm talent, mechanics or pocket presence to make it in this league that’s one thing. But maybe you watch Rosen’s rookie tape and say he can make the reads but his line doesn’t give him time to throw , guys can’t get open or he’s in the wrong system ect. I remember watching Troy Aikmans in his rookie year with the Cowboys and saying this guy stinks , he was 0-11 as a starter had 1,749 yards 9 TD’s and 18 interceptions. Troy Aikman is a hall of Famer I’m not saying Rosen is gonna be great just pointing out if you looked at Aikmans raw numbers from that year you would say he’s a bust vs perhaps looking at the situation he was in on a terrible team.

[lone bengal]

(03-06-2019, 03:13 PM)McC Wrote: Can't disagree with any of this in a vacuum, but how about putting the butts back in the seats?  I'm thinking this is high priority at this time for this franchise.

Agreed they should be worried about putting fans into seats. Signing Taylor and getting rid of Lewis was the first step in that direction. Getting rid of Burfict and signing a young free agent LB in his prime would be another. The real football fans will understand it might take him a season to get going. Maybe the attendance will suck this year but if Taylor starts winning they will come back. Plus let’s make moves that make sense for the team vs trying to sign free agents that don’t make sense to win back the fans. Like some fans would be excited if we sign Eric Weddle because it shows we want to win now but it dosent make sense because he’s 34 and we’re probably still two years away from being serious contenders with all the holes in our roster.

[*Nately120*]

(03-06-2019, 03:25 PM)lone bengal Wrote: Agreed can’t just judge Rosen on the raw numbers he was in a terrible situation. If you watch his rookie tape and say this guy can’t make the correct reads or dosent have the accuracy or arm talent, mechanics or pocket presence to make it in this league that’s one thing. But maybe you watch Rosen’s rookie tape and say he can make the reads but his line  doesn’t give him time to throw , guys can’t get open or he’s in the wrong system ect. I remember watching Troy Aikmans in his rookie year  with the Cowboys and saying this guy stinks , he was 0-11 as a starter had 1,749 yards 9 TD’s and 18 interceptions. Troy Aikman is a hall of Famer I’m not saying Rosen is gonna be great just pointing out if you looked at Aikmans raw numbers from that year you would say he’s a bust vs perhaps looking at the situation he was in on a terrible team.

Yeah, and again I'm not going to bat for Rosen so much as acting like a new, possibly over-eager HC showing up and tossing the last regime's QB aside for his own gimmicky pick isn't the best reason to assume Rosen is a worthless bust.  Stuff like this happens, and I can see a savvy team buying low on Rosen if the Cardinals are really as willing to move him for the sake of getting rid of him as it seems.

Stuff like this has happened in football before.  Josh McDaniels barely warmed up his HC chair in Denver and he wanted Jay Cutler out of there because he was obsessed with Matt Cassel and Tim Tebow.  Cutler isn't the greatest QB ever, but he was better than the QBs the new guy just "had to have."  New HC's like to draft QBs or dig up their own guys, which is why if ZT actually wanted to bring in Tannehill and draft a rookie QB I wouldn't instantly assume that Dalton is a crap QB that no one wants.

I could see a scenario where the Cards draft Murray and toss Rosen to the Patriots for a late 2nd round pick and it will be hailed as the savvy Pats preying on a rookie HC and desperate GM. Ol' Kliff may be hooked on Murray and he's like a crack addict taking everything he owns to the pawn shop.