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There are cornerbacks out there like Kayvon Webster.
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Jonathan Joseph might've been worth $10 million a year but Dennard is not.
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(03-18-2019, 07:29 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: Jonathan Joseph might've been worth $10 million a year but Dennard is not.
J Joe now, or J Joe in 2011?
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(03-18-2019, 06:56 PM)Au165 Wrote: 2nd this, highly overrated project.
He seems to be losing some of that overrating. When all is said and done, he might not even be a first rounder.
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(03-19-2019, 09:00 AM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: J Joe now, or J Joe in 2011?
2011. And...even that is debatable.
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Interesting that Oakland or Minny hasn't taken a look at him.
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(03-20-2019, 11:26 AM)BoomerFan Wrote: 2011. And...even that is debatable.
Not really. Joseph wound up being a great deal, while the Leon Hall deal burned us severely. Since we made that decision:
Joseph
9 missed games (8 seasons)
2 Pro Bowls
1 team (Texans)
14 INT's
105 passes defensed
Hall
40 missed games (8 seasons)
0 Pro Bowls
4 teams (Bengals, Giants, 49ers, Raiders, currently a free agent again)
9 INT's
47 passes defensed
-------------
Not that Joseph is making $10 million anymore...but if you just look at his production under the contract he signed in 2011, he made 2 Pro Bowls, has 12 INT's, 74 passes defensed. He earned the contract.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
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(03-20-2019, 01:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not really. Joseph wound up being a great deal, while the Leon Hall deal burned us severely. Since we made that decision:
Joseph
9 missed games (8 seasons)
2 Pro Bowls
1 team (Texans)
14 INT's
105 passes defensed
Hall
40 missed games (8 seasons)
0 Pro Bowls
4 teams (Bengals, Giants, 49ers, Raiders, currently a free agent again)
9 INT's
47 passes defensed
-------------
Not that Joseph is making $10 million anymore...but if you just look at his production under the contract he signed in 2011, he made 2 Pro Bowls, has 12 INT's, 74 passes defensed. He earned the contract.
Seems like he also burned us as an opponent on more than one occasion.
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(03-20-2019, 01:22 PM)McC Wrote: Seems like he also burned us as an opponent on more than one occasion.
He did...and as one of the few people who wanted Joseph over Leon, it stung to watch him do so well while Leon suddenly caught the injury bug. It's funny though, people wanted Leon over Joseph because he was more reliable. Then Joseph turns into an iron-man while Leon suddenly looked like Eifert.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
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Leon did't miss all those games; he was a FA for a long time, so a bunch of those missed games are due to that.
Still doesn't help in the availability department, but...
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I seem to be the only one thinking this, but if Webb can't do the job as the slot corner, I believe Phillips can. I think he has a promising future.
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(03-20-2019, 01:33 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Leon did't miss all those games; he was a FA for a long time, so a bunch of those missed games are due to that.
Still doesn't help in the availability department, but...
7 games in 2011
2 games in 2012
11 games in 2013
1 game in 2014
2 games in 2015
All while under contract with the Bengals. Then...
4 games in 2016 while under contract with the Giants
The 7 games missed in 2017 (49ers) were while he was a free agent
6 games in 2017 while under contract with the Raiders (IR'd with a back issue)
So only 7 of the 40 games missed were because he was a free agent. Either way, Joseph has played well enough to not worry about free agency, while Leon has barely been hanging on. I like Leon. I've called for us to sign him this year...but JJo was the better player.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
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(03-20-2019, 02:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 7 games in 2011
2 games in 2012
11 games in 2013
1 game in 2014
2 games in 2015
All while under contract with the Bengals. Then...
4 games in 2016 while under contract with the Giants
The 7 games missed in 2017 (49ers) were while he was a free agent
6 games in 2017 while under contract with the Raiders (IR'd with a back issue)
So only 7 of the 40 games missed were because he was a free agent. Either way, Joseph has played well enough to not worry about free agency, while Leon has barely been hanging on. I like Leon. I've called for us to sign him this year...but JJo was the better player.
Tearing his Achilles twice killed Leon but before he did that he did not miss a game while Joeseph missed 13. Still Leon in his prime was great HOF ability and I think you could say the same thing about Joeseph. It's a shame that we couldn't sign both.
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(03-20-2019, 01:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not really. Joseph wound up being a great deal, while the Leon Hall deal burned us severely. Since we made that decision:
Joseph
9 missed games (8 seasons)
2 Pro Bowls
1 team (Texans)
14 INT's
105 passes defensed
Hall
40 missed games (8 seasons)
0 Pro Bowls
4 teams (Bengals, Giants, 49ers, Raiders, currently a free agent again)
9 INT's
47 passes defensed
-------------
Not that Joseph is making $10 million anymore...but if you just look at his production under the contract he signed in 2011, he made 2 Pro Bowls, has 12 INT's, 74 passes defensed. He earned the contract.
Yea I still think Joseph was worth paying at the time. This is when I first realized the "keep our own" philosophy was just a bullshit excuse to not spend in free agency.
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(03-20-2019, 03:07 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Yea I still think Joseph was worth paying at the time. This is when I first realized the "keep our own" philosophy was just a bullshit excuse to not spend in free agency.
It's not bullshit, it's just only partially true, or true to a certain point.
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(03-20-2019, 02:34 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Tearing his Achilles twice killed Leon but before he did that he did not miss a game while Joeseph missed 13. Still Leon in his prime was great HOF ability and I think you could say the same thing about Joeseph. It's a shame that we couldn't sign both.
Right. That's whole situation is why I'm slow to apply the "injury prone" label. When it looked like we were choosing between the two, pro-Leon guys all said Joseph was injury prone. After that, it was Leon who was "injury prone" while Joseph barely missed any games. Personally, I always felt Joseph was a bit better, although I realize many felt that way about Leon.
(03-20-2019, 03:07 PM)yellowxdiscipline Wrote: Yea I still think Joseph was worth paying at the time. This is when I first realized the "keep our own" philosophy was just a bullshit excuse to not spend in free agency.
Well I do think we try to keep our own, generally. We have let some good players go, over the years (Justin Smith, Housh, Joseph, Michael Johnson, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Zeitler, Steinbach, etc), but we keep most of our good players. That said, this doesn't mean the "keep our own" stuff isn't a "BS excuse not to spend in free agency". Other teams somehow manage to do both.
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What's frustrating about this FO is they probably (and Hobspin admitted) are not going to do anything else until Dennard decides.
Reactive and not proactive. That's their motto.
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(03-20-2019, 04:20 PM)jj22 Wrote: What's frustrating about this FO is they probably (and Hobspin admitted) are not going to do anything else until Dennard decides.
Reactive and not proactive. That's their motto.
Well, they've got three options:
1- nothing and draft a guy or use one on the roster.
2- pay someone else (that list is thin for actual replacements)
3- let the market bring dennards price down.
If his agent is shopping him at $10 million and no one is biting, he'll start shopping him at $9, then $8, etc.
And besides, the fo found his replacement.
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Can't blame Dennard for asking for $10 million when the Bengals just gave a turd like Hart $7 million. But agreed, Dennard not worth it (neither was Hart but we all know what happened there).
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(03-20-2019, 04:20 PM)jj22 Wrote: What's frustrating about this FO is they probably (and Hobspin admitted) are not going to do anything else until Dennard decides.
Reactive and not proactive. That's their motto.
1--The Bengals are playing it perfectly. If they had paid him 10 a year, you'd be bitching about overpaying him.
2- Maybe they don't even want him.
3- You seem to have adopted a certain stance and everything that happens runs through that lens.
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