Green is great-but is he really ELITE?

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-14-2015, 10:55 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Do you see every snap, every drop, and every route of Julio, Dez, DT, Calvin, and AB?

NO !

I watch a lot of football but no I don't.

I think AJ is every bit Elite by most standards. But I also believe he's very capable of being even better. That's what we want. That last little tid bit, to be truly among the best in all phases of his position.

[Savagehenry54]

(09-14-2015, 11:16 AM)Joe Pong Wrote: I've had issues with AJ's play for about 3 years now. First let me say I'm a huge fan of his and was hoping he'd be a Bengal from the first time I saw him play at Georgia, so I was all for the bengals drafting him. Thought he would be elite right away.

Then his rookie year, he looked the part. Every week, he was making big plays and dynamic contested catches where he would out jump the defender.

But if you look at all his highlights of those jump balls and contested catches, they were almost all from his rookie season and beginning of his second season. That part of his game has completely disappeared. So, what was his biggest strength doesn't even exist any more.

Since then, he's been passed up by other guys like Dez Bryant, Julio Jones, D Thomas, Antonio Brown, and a bunch of other guys who would have rated behind him at one time.

"A bunch of other guys"..... I don't think so pal. He's right there with all those guys you just said and that's pretty much where the list ends.

[*bengalfan74*]

(09-14-2015, 11:01 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I was watching 8 games at once yesterday on the early games, then I watched 4 games for the later games and switched in and out of the Bengals games.

My grandson watched poor throw after poor throw from QB's like Luck, Cam, Bortles, Manning, Flacco and others. He normally just watched one game at a time. He made the comments he was shocked to watch all of these guys making so many poor throws.

The same thing with receiver drops.

It is not enough to just watch highlights of other teams, they are called highlights (high) for a reason and mostly show great or good plays for the offense or the defense.  Thus, most  fans opinions are skewed as they see 10% of other teams plays versus 100% of their own team.

Right,

I'm not trying to argue AJ Green isn't elite !

I'm saying there's still another rung in the ladder inside him and I want to see it come out. It's there, he just has to harness it.

Every WR ever to play the game drops passes it's not about that. I just want to see his best and I'm sure we don't see it all the time - YET.

[Brownshoe]

(09-14-2015, 11:23 AM)djs7685 Wrote: IMO, you can put those guys in almost any order and be able to argue that it makes sense.

It's like when people would sit around and nitpick over which exact order Manning/Brady/Brees/Rodgers should have been in.

There are 7-10 "elite" receivers in the NFL right now. It's such a subjective term, and I think some people use it oddly. I don't think there's any magic number of how many elite players there can be at a given time. There could be a year where the NFL only has 1-2 elite receivers, and there could be a time when there happens to be 12. I know it may sound crazy to say that 1/4 of #1 WRs are elite, but there are probably 8 guys right now that make a very, very good case for that title and it's hard to argue how one of them should be considered elite but the other can't.

I never said that he wasn't elite. I just said that I don't think he's in the top five.

[PApinhead]

(09-14-2015, 11:32 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Right,

I'm not trying to argue AJ Green isn't elite !

I'm saying there's still another rung in the ladder inside him and I want to see it come out. It's there, he just has to harness it.

Every WR ever to play the game drops passes it's not about that. I just want to see his best and I'm sure we don't see it all the time - YET.

Exactly!!!  We just want him to be the best he can be!!

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 11:33 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I never said that he wasn't elite. I just said that I don't think he's in the top five.

Oh I wasn't arguing with you, but I quoted your post since you had a list of the guys I was talking about with my statements.

Whether you say

Dez
Calvin
AB
DT
Julio
A.J.
Jordy

or

Calvin
AB
Dez
A.J.
Julio
Jordy
DT

Is it really a huge difference? That's my point. I think that most of these guys can easily be interchangeable and the argument would make sense.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 11:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Oh I wasn't arguing with you, but I quoted your post since you had a list of the guys I was talking about with my statements.

Whether you say

Dez
Calvin
AB
DT
Julio
A.J.
Jordy

or

Calvin
AB
Dez
A.J.
Julio
Jordy
DT

Is it really a huge difference? That's my point. I think that most of these guys can easily be interchangeable and the argument would make sense.

We may all have different definition or standard for the word "elite".

In my mind, elite means HOF caliber. It does not mean potential to be a HOF WR or QB or whatever.

Calvin Johnson - yes, he has the stats
A. Brown - yes he is both a great WR (stats-results) and a great special teams player
Dez - Not yet, but close
A.J. Not yet, but close
Julio - Not yet
Jordy - Not as close as the others
DT - not in my mind

So, I have 2 guys elite, but others may say all of them are elite which is their opinion. I may not agree nor others agree with me, but that is my opinion.

But, they are all very good WR's no doubt.

[OrlandoBengal]

Going back to the old board, this is basically the only place I see this even discussed.  Many talk about his drops as if other receivers don't drop balls.  I just did some research... went back to 2011 using AJ, Dez Bryants, Calvin Johnson, Julio Jones, and Jordy Nelson.  Below are the percentage of dropped passes by year.

2014:
Dez 3.7
Julion 3.1
Jordy 2.7
Calvin 2.3
AJ 1.7

2013:
Calvin 5.1
AJ 3.9
Dez 3.8
Julio 3.3
Jordy 2.4

2012:
Jordy 8.2
Dez 6.5
Julio 6.2
AJ 5.5
Calvin 5.4

2011:
Julio 6.3
Calvin 3.8
AJ 2.6
Jordy 2.1
Dez 1.9

Yes, there might be some discussion over what counted as a drop and how the list was compiled, but they all drop balls... it happens, they are human.  Note though, AJ is never at the top of this list.

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nfl/stats/drops/2011/

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 11:49 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: We may all have different definition or standard for the word "elite".

In my mind, elite means HOF caliber. It does not mean potential to be a HOF WR or QB or whatever.

Calvin Johnson - yes, he has the stats
A. Brown - yes he is both a great WR (stats-results) and a great special teams player
Dez - Not yet, but close
A.J. Not yet, but close
Julio - Not yet
Jordy - Not as close as the others
DT - not in my mind

So, I have 2 guys elite, but others may say all of them are elite which is their opinion. I may not agree nor others agree with me, but that is my opinion.

But, they are all very good WR's no doubt.

You basically just argued with yourself with this post.

If AB goes down at the next Steelers practice with a career ending injury, he would NOT be a lock for the Hall of Fame. Therefore you shouldn't be able to consider him "elite" with your criteria.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 12:02 PM)djs7685 Wrote: You basically just argued with yourself with this post.

If AB goes down at the next Steelers practice with a career ending injury, he would NOT be a lock for the Hall of Fame. Therefore you shouldn't be able to consider him "elite" with your criteria.

I can do whatever rules I want in my criteria. That is why it is "my" criteria. Make up your own, in mine AJ is not elite yet, but as I stated very close. I would also argue AB already has the stats to get in the HOF when you factor in his big play ability on special teams even if he did get hurt next week.

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 12:27 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I can do whatever rules I want in my criteria. That is why it is "my" criteria. Make up your own, in mine AJ is not elite yet, but as I stated very close. I would also argue AB already has the stats to get in the HOF when you factor in his big play ability on special teams even if he did get hurt next week.

You can have any criteria you'd like, but I was simply stating that your "elite WRs" didn't fit into YOUR own criteria.

Antonio Brown absolutely does not have the statistics to get into the Hall of Fame right now. You're just intentionally lying to make it seem like you didn't completely contradict yourself with your post.

You said to be considered "elite", you have to essentially be a Hall of Fame lock, but it can't just be potential. Okay, well, Antonio Brown (at this point) is purely potential and does NOT have the numbers to get into the Hall. Do you even think before you type?

I don't care that you won't call A.J. elite, I just think it's hilarious that you contradicted yourself and you're too damn stubborn to admit it. How long did it take Reed and Carter to finally get in? You're flat out lying if you say that Antonio freakin' Brown is a Hall of Fame lock at this very moment.

[Aquapod770]

Has AJ Green become the Joe Flacco of the Bengals???

[GreenCornBengal]

Our boy Eifert wouldn't be WIDE OPEN if AJ wasn't elite.

There would be 8 men in the box if AJ wasn't elite.

Our whole offense clicks because AJ is elite..

[Hammerstripes]

Not a homer, but how can you not consider him elite when he comes into he league and has been a Pro-Bowler every year.

People complain about Dalton and his ability as a QB, if that's the case, it makes AJ's career that much more remarkable.

Every WR is going to drop some passes, it happens. Can he be a little more consistent? I guess, but looking at his numbers, he's pretty consistent already.

[BoomerFan]

I feel like he's just in a slump of late -- and much of that might be explained by the turf toe injury he had last year. Now if the toe is still bothering him this year (possible) that could mean his production is down for awhile. That said, I feel like we haven't seen the best of Green yet.

[Hammerstripes]

(09-14-2015, 02:05 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Our boy Eifert wouldn't be WIDE OPEN if AJ wasn't elite.

There would be 8 men in the box if AJ wasn't elite.

Our whole offense clicks because AJ is elite..

This sums it up pretty good.

I only need to point at one game - the Colts playoff game - to show the effect that AJ has on this offense.  No question in my mind that he is a top 3-5 WR in the game.

[Brownshoe]

(09-14-2015, 02:41 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: This sums it up pretty good.

I only need to point at one game - the Colts playoff game - to show the effect that AJ has on this offense.  No question in my mind that he is a top 3-5 WR in the game.

He wasn't the only one gone in that game...

[OrlandoBengal]

(09-14-2015, 02:05 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Our boy Eifert wouldn't be WIDE OPEN if AJ wasn't elite.

There would be 8 men in the box if AJ wasn't elite.

Our whole offense clicks because AJ is elite..

Very good points.  Defenses would play very differently if they did not have to double team him on basically every snap.

[*Synric*]

(09-14-2015, 02:05 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Our boy Eifert wouldn't be WIDE OPEN if AJ wasn't elite.

There would be 8 men in the box if AJ wasn't elite.

Our whole offense clicks because AJ is elite..

As mentioned on the front front page Oakland played a safety deep a big chunk of the game. This is because AJ can and will beat teams deep.... Eifert and Andy recognised this and reaped the benefits. The Bengals really do have a ton of weapons hopefullly they all stay healthy.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 12:33 PM)djs7685 Wrote: You can have any criteria you'd like, but I was simply stating that your "elite WRs" didn't fit into YOUR own criteria.

Antonio Brown absolutely does not have the statistics to get into the Hall of Fame right now. You're just intentionally lying to make it seem like you didn't completely contradict yourself with your post.

You said to be considered "elite", you have to essentially be a Hall of Fame lock, but it can't just be potential. Okay, well, Antonio Brown (at this point) is purely potential and does NOT have the numbers to get into the Hall. Do you even think before you type?

I don't care that you won't call A.J. elite, I just think it's hilarious that you contradicted yourself and you're too damn stubborn to admit it. How long did it take Reed and Carter to finally get in? You're flat out lying if you say that Antonio freakin' Brown is a Hall of Fame lock at this very moment.

If Rodgers gets a career ending injury tomorrow, he also loses out on the HOF

He does not have the stats yet either, but he is elite in my eyes. I consider him a lock unless he has a career ending injury.

I consider A. Brown and Calvin Johnson both locks, one has the stats, the other will have barring injury

I guess this is all over your head