Green is great-but is he really ELITE?

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 03:02 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: If Rodgers gets a career ending injury tomorrow, he also loses out on the HOF

He does not have the stats yet either, but he is elite in my eyes. I consider him a lock unless he has a career ending injury.

I consider A. Brown and Calvin Johnson both locks, one has the stats, the other will have barring injury

I guess this is all over your head

This isn't over my head. You're the one making up the criteria and apparently you're the one that is missing the point.

Aaron Rodgers would 110% be a lock Hall of Fame QB if he retired tomorrow. 100%. No one would argue that.

Antonio Brown would 110% be NOT a lock as a Hall of Fame WR if he retired tomorrow. 100%. No one other than you right now would argue that.

If you would have said with your original post that you only consider Brown and Calvin to be the elites of the league and left it at that, I'd have accepted your answer with no argument. It's the fact that you added the weird criteria of your only elite players are "future HOF" but not "future HOF potential".

Antonio Brown is HOF potential, plain and simple, so he doesn't fit YOUR criteria. Do you understand what I'm saying??? You can think AB is elite, but you can't think AB is elite and have your criteria of "elite" be that the player has to be future HoF, because AB doesn't fit that criteria. This isn't very difficult to understand, my man. I'm cool with you thinking he's an elite WR, but you're not making sense with the nonsensical reasoning since he doesn't fit the bill. If he fits, then so do the other guys on your list.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 03:11 PM)djs7685 Wrote: This isn't over my head. You're the one making up the criteria and apparently you're the one that is missing the point.

Aaron Rodgers would 110% be a lock Hall of Fame QB if he retired tomorrow. 100%. No one would argue that.

Antonio Brown would 110% be NOT a lock as a Hall of Fame WR if he retired tomorrow. 100%. No one other than you right now would argue that.

If you would have said with your original post that you only consider Brown and Calvin to be the elites of the league and left it at that, I'd have accepted your answer with no argument. It's the fact that you added the weird criteria of your only elite players are "future HOF" but not "future HOF potential".

Antonio Brown is HOF potential, plain and simple, so he doesn't fit YOUR criteria. Do you understand what I'm saying??? You can think AB is elite, but you can't think AB is elite and have your criteria of "elite" be that the player has to be future HoF, because AB doesn't fit that criteria. This isn't very difficult to understand, my man. I'm cool with you thinking he's an elite WR, but you're not making sense with the nonsensical reasoning since he doesn't fit the bill. If he fits, then so do the other guys on your list.

I will dumb it down for you as it is more than just WR stats.

AB is a better receiver because he makes impact play after impact play in big moments than guys like Julio and AJ thus far. AJ disappears in the playoffs.

Rodgers does not have the stats right now yet either, he has his playoff success in addition to everything else

So, based on the criteria I set in my mind AB continues on the same path, he will be a lock very soon

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 03:22 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I will dumb it down for you as it is more than just WR stats.

AB is a better receiver because he makes impact play after impact play in big moments than guys like Julio and AJ thus far. AJ disappears in the playoffs.

Rodgers does not have the stats right now yet either, he has his playoff success in addition to everything else

So, based on the criteria I set in my mind AB continues on the same path, he will be a lock very soon

Then say that to begin with.

Don't make up criteria and then not even follow your own criteria to arrive to your conclusions.

By definition of the words you used, Antonio Brown doesn't fit into your "elite" category, but falls into the category that you have Julio, A.J., and Dez in. I was just taking everything you said as if you mean what you say. I deeply apologize that I can't read your mind and understand that when you use certain words that you don't mean what they're actually defined as.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 03:26 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Then say that to begin with.

Don't make up criteria and then not even follow your own criteria to arrive to your conclusions.

By definition of the words you used, Antonio Brown doesn't fit into your "elite" criteria, but falls into the category that you have Julio, A.J., and Dez in. I was just taking everything you said as if you mean what you say. I deeply apologize that I can't read your mind and understand that when you use certain words that you don't mean what they're actually defined as.

I stated upfront we all have different criteria

I did not realize I was obligated to post the 100 different things I consider, I thought a summary of a few would suffice for most and most would get the point of my post

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 03:29 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I stated upfront we all have different criteria

I did not realize I was obligated to post the 100 different things I consider, I thought a summary of a few would suffice for most and most would get the point of my post

I understand that we all have different criteria.

The fact is that one of your guys that you deemed elite does NOT fit your own criteria. I'm honestly not sure why I'm wasting the time to explain this to somebody.

If you said "I believe Antonio Brown is an elite receiver and A.J., Dez, and Julio aren't". That's fine. I'd think you're a bit crazy, but that's fine and I probably wouldn't argue much.

If you say "I believe to be elite you have to be future HOF and not just HOF potential, therefore AB is elite and A.J., Dez, and Julio aren't", that's not fine because it makes absolutely ZERO sense. AB isn't any more of a lock than the other guys. In fact, Dez Bryant has a more impressive resume than any of the others, and I have no idea on which planet he isn't considered the clear #1/2 receiver in the NFL.

The issue isn't that you believe AB is elite, that's not the problem here. You don't need to post the 100 different things you consider. The ONE thing you did post of your criteria doesn't match AB though, so that's where the issue comes in. I'd love to say that I'm surprised here but after dealing with your stubborn bullshit on the other board, I'm really not.

[Luvnit2]

(09-14-2015, 03:36 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I understand that we all have different criteria.

The fact is that one of your guys that you deemed elite does NOT fit your own criteria. I'm honestly not sure why I'm wasting the time to explain this to somebody.

If you said "I believe Antonio Brown is an elite receiver and A.J., Dez, and Julio aren't". That's fine. I'd think you're a bit crazy, but that's fine and I probably wouldn't argue much.

If you say "I believe to be elite you have to be future HOF and not just HOF potential, therefore AB is elite and A.J., Dez, and Julio aren't", that's not fine because it makes absolutely ZERO sense. AB isn't any more of a lock than the other guys. In fact, Dez Bryant has a more impressive resume than any of the others, and I have no idea on which planet he isn't considered the clear #1/2 receiver in the NFL.

The issue isn't that you believe AB is elite, that's not the problem here. You don't need to post the 100 different things you consider. The ONE thing you did post of your criteria doesn't match AB though, so that's where the issue comes in. I'd love to say that I'm surprised here but after dealing with your stubborn bullshit on the other board, I'm really not.

I would love to say I am surprised as well someone would take my OP and argue semantics, but then we are dealing with you so I knew you would take an argumentative view versus the true intent of my post
its cool, I think you are an idiot, you think the same of me. Life goes on, but I will attempt to ignore your argumentative posts in the future since I have no respect for most you post.

All the best, I am tired of the back and forths and I am sure the rest of the forum is as well.

So, to recap for the future, DJS is always right and never makes a bad post or ever attacks anyone personally. He is a true legend

[Fresno B]

(09-14-2015, 11:11 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Eh

I wouldn't put him at top five, but I can see an argument that he's #5

Antonio Brown
Dez Bryant
Calvin Johnson
Demaryius Thomas
Jordy Nelson
A.J. Green
Brandon Marshal
Julio Jones

HaHa. Jordy above AJ? Lol.

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 03:45 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I would love to say I am surprised as well someone would take my OP and argue semantics, but then we are dealing with you so I knew you would take an argumentative view versus the true intent of my post
its cool, I think you are an idiot, you think the same of me. Life goes on, but I will attempt to ignore your argumentative posts in the future since I have no respect for most you post.

All the best, I am tired of the back and forths and I am sure the rest of the forum is as well.

So, to recap for the future, DJS is always right and never makes a bad post or ever attacks anyone personally. He is a true legend

So you're going to flat out call me an idiot, and then complain that I personally attacked you however long ago that you're referring to? Interesting tactic, I must say.

Honestly, you're again using improper terminology. I may be an asshole and I may not have the same opinions as you, but I'm hardly an "idiot". The idiot is probably the guy that makes up his own interpretations for words that already have definitions and argues points that make absolutely zero sense. I'm not the guy that structures his sentences worse than elementary school students. I've done nothing more than call you stubborn in this thread, and I hardly think that's a huge insult. You just can't admit when you're wrong, instead you always dig yourself deeper and deeper into your own bullshit and that's not my fault that you do that.

Now, if you want to stick with the topic at hand, how on earth do you view AB as elite but you refuse to say the same about the other top WRs in the league? Dez in particular, but going from purely a statistical standpoint, A.J. is right there with AB and Dez Bryant is even more impressive than AB has been. So, what's your rationale that AB is elite but A.J. and specifically Dez Bryant can't get that classification from you?

[McC]

Sometimes, when people get all caught up in ranking players, it takes their attention away from the enjoyment and appreciation of being lucky enough to see a great career unfolding. Years from now, people will take great pride in being able to say, "I saw every game AJ Green played," and the people being told will say, "Damn, you were lucky."

If people stop worrying about what he doesn't do, they will appreciate what he does do a lot more.

[jj22]

I'm not going to slam Green. But people have to acknowledge these warts amongst the confides of the board. It's not like we are admitting them to Steeler fans. Every time he drops a pass now I smh. Regardless of what other receivers around the league do. Other Qb's miss throws, have bad games/throw mass interceptions (Luck), but that doesn't stop the attacks on Dalton now does it? So lets stop using that as an excuse for Green. Like other qb's and Dalton, those receivers (Dez) has shown up in big games and made plays. Something Green hasn't shown he could do. We shouldn't settle for what Green is (a great receiver we are lucky to have), when he should be (with his talent) better (elite).

[PApinhead]

(09-14-2015, 05:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not going to slam Green. But people have to acknowledge these warts amongst the confides of the board. It's not like we are admitting them to Steeler fans. Every time he drops a pass now I smh. Regardless of what other receivers around the league do. Other Qb's miss throws, have bad games/throw mass interceptions (Luck),  but that doesn't stop the attacks on Dalton now does it? So lets stop using that as an excuse for Green. Like other qb's and Dalton, those receivers (Dez) has shown up in big games and made plays. Something Green hasn't shown he could do. We shouldn't settle for what Green is (a great receiver we are lucky to have), when he should be (with his talent) better (elite).

Exactly!!!  Good post!

[Whacked]

THIS!

(09-14-2015, 05:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not going to slam Green. But people have to acknowledge these warts amongst the confides of the board. It's not like we are admitting them to Steeler fans. Every time he drops a pass now I smh. Regardless of what other receivers around the league do. Other Qb's miss throws, have bad games/throw mass interceptions (Luck),  but that doesn't stop the attacks on Dalton now does it? So lets stop using that as an excuse for Green. Like other qb's and Dalton, those receivers (Dez) has shown up in big games and made plays. Something Green hasn't shown he could do. We shouldn't settle for what Green is (a great receiver we are lucky to have), when he should be (with his talent) better (elite).

[djs7685]

(09-14-2015, 05:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not going to slam Green. But people have to acknowledge these warts amongst the confides of the board. It's not like we are admitting them to Steeler fans. Every time he drops a pass now I smh. Regardless of what other receivers around the league do. Other Qb's miss throws, have bad games/throw mass interceptions (Luck), but that doesn't stop the attacks on Dalton now does it? So lets stop using that as an excuse for Green. Like other qb's and Dalton, those receivers (Dez) has shown up in big games and made plays. Something Green hasn't shown he could do. We shouldn't settle for what Green is (a great receiver we are lucky to have), when he should be (with his talent) better (elite).

This post is just simply driven by a shitty analogy.

You whine about people attacking Andy, but you don't stop to realize that people do that because Andy has been worse than his peers at a higher rate than a lot of them throughout his career.

On the other hand, A.J. Green has been far and away one of the best 5 or 7 (at worst) WRs in the entire league since he's been in the NFL.

Nice try though, but some of us realize how stupid that analogy is.

A.J. drops passes at a lower or equal rate to his peers, so why should we say he isn't elite because of drops if we're going to turn around and say other guys are elite while ignoring drops? Sorry, but some of us watch games outside of Cincinnati and recognize that A.J. doesn't drop passes more often than the others.

[franchise18]

AJ is as talented as almost anyone but I think it's fair to point out that we haven't seen any vast improvement since coming into the league (to be fair, there was only so much room), which I agree can be slightly disappointing at times as a fan that is looking for anything to get us over the hump. Again, this is all relative because we're talking about the second most naturally talented WR in the league imo, but I'd say he is probably between 5 and 10 as a finished product right now. Other guys from his generation have just shown more signs of improvement and consistency (oftentimes with more consistent QB play) and I'd put these guys ahead of him currently, though he could easily still leap to the top.

Antonio Brown
Dez Bryant
Calvin Johnson
Julio Jones
Odell Beckham

I'd put Demaryius Thomas right with him and some others just a hair behind him.

[phil413]

The reason this keeps coming up is we remember some amazing catches and expect it all the time. He should be much more consistent for everyone to call him elite, no more excuses this year. Consider that he's putting up elite stats every year without a true #2 target to take pressure off of him. Eifert, Jones and Gio are healthy, he has a loaded line and Hill....this is it. The drop in the endzone was bad, but I'm chalking it up as a drop. Last year I wanted to see him sell out for the contested throws Andy threw that became INT's, but with all the extra help we won't see as many of those throws into coverage.

[Shake n Blake]

(09-14-2015, 12:00 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: Going back to the old board, this is basically the only place I see this even discussed. 

I've read tons of comments from non-Bengals fans saying that AJ wasn't worth what DT, Dez and Julio got. Opinion of him doesn't seem to be as positive as it was a couple years ago. Of course, he did have a down season with injuries, so I'm sure that plays into it.

(09-14-2015, 02:38 PM)BoomerFan Wrote: I feel like he's just in a slump of late -- and much of that might be explained by the turf toe injury he had last year. Now if the toe is still bothering him this year (possible) that could mean his production is down for awhile. That said, I feel like we haven't seen the best of Green yet.

It does feel like he's in a slump. Honestly, I'd like AJ's personality if he were a friend of mine. He seems cool as a cucumber. As a football player though, I wish he'd show a little fire sometimes. What made Jerry Rice so great was the intense desire and drive he had. I just don't see that with AJ sometimes. 

I'm sure some will just think I'm hating on him, but whatever. I want the dude to be the best WR of all-time, but he's going to need some fire in his belly to get to that level. For example, Haden owns him. Instead of that driving him to be even better, I feel like AJ just gets frustrated and down on himself.

(09-14-2015, 05:18 PM)jj22 Wrote: I'm not going to slam Green. But people have to acknowledge these warts amongst the confides of the board. It's not like we are admitting them to Steeler fans. Every time he drops a pass now I smh. Regardless of what other receivers around the league do. Other Qb's miss throws, have bad games/throw mass interceptions (Luck),  but that doesn't stop the attacks on Dalton now does it? So lets stop using that as an excuse for Green. Like other qb's and Dalton, those receivers (Dez) has shown up in big games and made plays. Something Green hasn't shown he could do. We shouldn't settle for what Green is (a great receiver we are lucky to have), when he should be (with his talent) better (elite).

It's pretty much like this with any player or coach. Poster A points out flaws while poster B gets butt hurt. 

It'd be nice if we could have a reasonable discussion on how AJ could get better, or any player/coach for that matter.

[Millhouse]

I dont think he is top-5 at the moment, but more like a top-10 receiver. That said he has plenty of time to get back into that top 5 status, and he will once he gets out of this dropsy slump.

[Joelist]

AJs issues are hardly a secret, hence the media show ready to be cued up when he bobbled a perfect pass into a pick six in the Tampa preseason game.

That said, they are hardly unsolvable. The team should invest in a personal coach (preferably a former NFL receiver known for good technical play) for AJ to work on properly playing the ball. I'd think some personal touch work like that would do the trick.

[PApinhead]

(09-14-2015, 11:48 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's pretty much like this with any player or coach. Poster A points out flaws while poster B gets butt hurt. 

It'd be nice if we could have a reasonable discussion on how AJ could get better, or any player/coach for that matter.

^^^^^ This is one of my biggest complaints.  Why can't we just have discussions without them turning into insults and name calling?  

[J24]

Yes he is elite. The dude has had 4 straight 1000 yard seasons to start a career. He had 5 games without a catch last season (due to injury) and Still had a 1000 yards.