Starting to Think We Go QB Early

[Shake n Blake]

(04-10-2019, 11:14 AM)jj22 Wrote: That's the most common comp for him. And if you watch him you'll see it. Dalton's best qualities coming out was his accuracy, anticipation, experience, record, and poise. And his biggest question marks were his arm strength.

I think people take this comp as a shot against Grier (because of their feelings on Dalton).

It's not That's why they both were considered 2nd round picks.

If he was that much better than Dalton coming out, he'd be a first round lock in this weak QB class.

People also forget that Dalton just missed being a 1st round pick. A few teams considered him in the first, and he was the 3rd pick of the 2nd round (35th overall). Sometimes I wonder if the narratives around him would've changed if we traded into the first to get him (which Jay wanted to do). Instead, he was viewed by fans as an inferior prospect "cuz 2nd round".

[HuDey]

(04-10-2019, 11:14 AM)jj22 Wrote: That's the most common comp for him. And if you watch him you'll see it. Dalton's best qualities coming out was his accuracy, anticipation, experience, record, and poise. And his biggest question marks were his arm strength.

I think people take this comp as a shot against Grier (because of their feelings on Dalton).

It's not That's why they both were considered 2nd round picks.

If he was that much better than Dalton coming out, he'd be a first round lock in this weak QB class.

It’s not wrong to compare Grier to Dalton, a lot of the measurables are very similar. I think that all things considered Baker Mayfield is a better comp for Grier than Dalton when you look at demeanor and style of play. Those guys are more outwardly confident and have more of a gunslinger mentality than does Dalton. Both are traits I prefer in a QB. I’d be happy to get Grier in round 2 but I would be surprised if the Bengals were to draft him. It seems that they prefer players who are less likely to speak their mind.

[NKURyan]

(04-10-2019, 01:00 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: People also forget that Dalton just missed being a 1st round pick. A few teams considered him in the first, and he was the 3rd pick of the 2nd round (35th overall). Sometimes I wonder if the narratives around him would've changed if we traded into the first to get him (which Jay wanted to do). Instead, he was viewed by fans as an inferior prospect "cuz 2nd round".

I've had that exact same thought. And it's not just some of the fans that hold it against him, IMO, it's the media too. He's had more success as a Bengal than Carson Palmer who was taken #1 overall, and it's interesting to compare how Carson was looked at here versus Dalton.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-10-2019, 04:11 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I've had that exact same thought. And it's not just some of the fans that hold it against him, IMO, it's the media too. He's had more success as a Bengal than Carson Palmer who was taken #1 overall, and it's interesting to compare how Carson was looked at here versus Dalton.

Interesting side note.....I just read an article about the best 2nd round QBs since 2000.  They had Andy at 3rd behind Derek Carr and Drew Brees.  Personally, I'd put him above Carr, but that's not too shabby.  They noted that he's been "a solid, sturdy, consistent, if not spectacular, QB for the Bengals since day 1.  No one else can say they have led Cincinnati to 5 consecutive playoff appearances."  The media has finally relented a tad, so it seems.

Another ranked him the 6th best 2nd round QB since 1970....behind Cunningham, Boomer, Carr, Brees, and Favre. Carr above Boomer? PPPPFFFTTT!!!!

[*Synric*]

(04-10-2019, 03:59 PM)HuDey Wrote: It’s not wrong to compare Grier to Dalton, a lot of the measurables are very similar. I think that all things considered Baker Mayfield is a better comp for Grier than Dalton when you look at demeanor and style of play. Those guys are more outwardly confident and have more of a gunslinger mentality than does Dalton. Both are traits I prefer in a QB. I’d be happy to get Grier in round 2 but I would be surprised if the Bengals were to draft him. It seems that they prefer players who are less likely to speak their mind.

I think it's a lazy comparison based on size accuracy numbers and perceived arm strength. If you watch them they are very different players on the football field.

Andy is accurate throwing through rings and Grier is accurate dropping it into a bucket.

[NKURyan]

(04-10-2019, 04:27 PM)Wyche Wrote: Another ranked him the 6th best 2nd round QB since 1970....behind Cunningham, Boomer, Carr, Brees, and Favre.  Carr above Boomer?  PPPPFFFTTT!!!!

I'd just ignore that one, lol.

I actually forgot that Boomer was a second round pick. Bengals have had good luck there!

[*bfine32*]

(04-09-2019, 09:30 AM)jj22 Wrote: They also didn't have as many holes in the roster as we do. They were a qb away. We aren't.

Yeah, cause they were all set at Defense. 

Their #1 RB was Spencer Ware

Their #1 WR was a 5th Rounder with less than 600 yards

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-10-2019, 07:10 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I'd just ignore that one, lol.

I actually forgot that Boomer was a second round pick. Bengals have had good luck there!

Yes sir.....they have.  I get the argument between Dalton and Carr, but Carr over Boomer?  No way!

[jj22]

(04-11-2019, 12:23 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Yeah, cause they were all set at Defense. 

Their #1 RB was Spencer Ware

Their #1 WR was a 5th Rounder with less than 600 yards

Anyone who watched that team knew they were a qb away. Did you miss what they did when Hunt was out last season? Not sure what that point was, and TK was their number 1 receiver, and more reliable then any receiver we have.

The D wasn't top 5, but they were a playoff team the year they drafted Mahomes. We haven't been a playoff team in 3 years.

So during our 5 year run, maybe we were an upgrade at qb away if you want to argue that. We aren't now.

Thus I maintain, we aren't a qb away. And I like the build the team and plug in the franchise QB model instead of get the QB and ruin them as you try to build the trenches etc, and when it's all built the qb is on their final year of their rookie contract, and the fans have turned on him for the failures of the team as they struggle.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-11-2019, 10:54 AM)jj22 Wrote: Anyone who watched that team knew they were a qb away. Did you miss what they did when Hunt was out last season? Not sure what that point was, and TK was their number 1 receiver, and more reliable then any receiver we have.

The D wasn't top 5, but they were a playoff team before. We haven't been a playoff team in 3 years.

So during our 5 year run, maybe we were an upgraded at qb away if you want to argue that. We aren't now.

Obviously they were not just a QB away because they didn’t even make it to the SB...

[jj22]

Real rich coming from the fans of a team that couldn't even get a playoff win when at it's peak.

I'm sure KC fans get a kick out of that.

They were a qb away from being legit SB contenders and they are legit Superbowl contenders.

[NKURyan]

(04-11-2019, 11:00 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Obviously they were not just a QB away because they didn’t even make it to the SB...

If that linebacker stands a few inches back, they do.

[fredtoast]

1. Patrick Mahomes is not the only QB taken in the first round recently.

2. What the Chiefs did when drafting Mahomes is so rare that you might as well argue we should wait to draft a QB in the sixth round because that worked for the Patriots.

[RunKijanaRun]

Watching some tape and I came to the following (very troubling) conclusion:

Daniel Jones is Blake Bortles Redux.

Same delivery, arm strength is comparable, almost identical runners.

Specifically, watch the hitch both guys have in their throwing motions.

Bortles

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLrFUoeQTMo

Jones

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W296HCOpqBU

[*Nately120*]

(04-11-2019, 12:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 1.  Patrick Mahomes is not the only QB taken in the first round recently.

2.  What the Chiefs did when drafting Mahomes is so rare that you might as well argue we should wait to draft a QB in the sixth round because that worked for the Patriots.

I'll admit everyone has "recency-fever" over Mahommes, but I'm not sure a 1st round QB being good is really all that mind-blowing.  In that draft alone I'd say all 3 first round QBs in Mahommes, Trubisky, and Watson all have their respective teams feeling pretty secure.  Not sure I'd compare a good first round QB to getting the GOAT from the 6th.

Anyways, since we are on a whole Dalton vs Palmer thing...even with the notion that the Steelers and Ravens had super awesome D's while he was here, I just feel like (yeah, I didn't look it up yet) he had a few more seasons in the top tier of QBs than Dalton.  I think Dalton is a lot better than people give him credit for, but as nice as making the playoffs 5  years in a row goes, he never struck me as a guy who was vying for MVP votes or knocking on the top-tier with the other QBs.

I guess it depends on the metric by which they are judged, but Palmer, Boomer, and Anderson were all top 3 QBs at one time or another (I think) and Dalton was really only that high in the injury shortened 2015.  Or I could be wrong.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2019, 01:11 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'll admit everyone has "recency-fever" over Mahommes, but I'm not sure a 1st round QB being good is really all that mind-blowing.  In that draft alone I'd say all 3 first round QBs in Mahommes, Trubisky, and Watson all have their respective teams feeling pretty secure.  Not sure I'd compare a good first round QB to getting the GOAT from the 6th.

Only 7 of the 24 QBs drafted in the first round since 2011 have a higher career passer rating than Dalton.

[*Nately120*]

(04-11-2019, 01:22 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Only 7 of the 24 QBs drafted in the first round since 2011 have a higher career passer rating than Dalton.

Right, I believe it, but I mean every year Dalton is a starting QB where does he rank compared to the other 31 starting QBs?  I care more about where Dalton ranks compared to Brady, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson etc than I give a crap about how he compares to Jake Locker, Blame Gabbert, Johnny Manziel, etc.

The quick stat off the top of my head is to think of when Dalton and Palmer were good enough to be nationally relevant.  Quick thinking just makes me think 2005 and 2015 for Palmer and 2015 for Dalton, but again, that's just what springs to mind.


EDIT - I realize I've gotten a bit off the topic of 1st round QB, but people mentioned the Palmer/Dalton thing, so I ran with that. As far as getting a QB goes, I think we end up with one when Mike Brown lets ZT take one, that's all.

[fredtoast]

(04-11-2019, 01:27 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Right, I believe it, but I mean every year Dalton is a starting QB where does he rank compared to the other 31 starting QBs?  I care more about where Dalton ranks compared to Brady, Matt Ryan, Russell Wilson etc than I give a crap about how he compares to Jake Locker, Blame Gabbert, Johnny Manziel, etc.

Then you want us to go out and sign a proven starter instead of trying to draft one, correct?

Because if you care about where our QB ranked you won't be so eager to just replace him with a draft pick.

[*Nately120*]

(04-11-2019, 01:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then you want us to go out and sign a proven starter instead of trying to draft one, correct?

Because if you care about where our QB ranked you won't be so eager to just replace him with a draft pick.

I'm not saying what we should or shouldn't do.  The way I see it, Dalton is going to be here until Dalton wants to leave OR if ZT insists on replacing him.  Mike Brown has never actually voluntarily replaced a good starting QB in his almost 30 years of running this team.  So, either Dalton stays here until he retires, he elects to test the FA market in 2 years, or ZT insists on replacing him.

We can roll with Dalton.  He isn't the reason we haven't won anything in 30 years.

[2MinutesHate]

I'm no Dalton lover, but let the guy have just one year without Dingleberry Lewis hovering over him like a bat. Let's just see what happens.

Maybe a LB so our defense actually stands half a chance? Not sure why QB is even a point of discussion. Have we totally forgotten what happened last year?