Starting to Think We Go QB Early

[RunKijanaRun]

(04-24-2019, 12:34 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I could see us drafting a QB in round 1. If we do, it means we may be tanking 2019. If we also trade AD prior to start of the season, then I see a rebuild beginning.

What is the value of AD? I think he is #1 pick plus at least a 2nd round pick.

I like AD and think our fans love to find that one guy to trash and it has been AD for many, in past it was Peko, Rey M. and others.

I hope we make the right decision with the draft and roster, I am no expert so how can I be happy or sad after the draft.

My happiness is based on winning and winning only in 2019.

I need to make sure I understand this before I die of an aneurysm. 

You think Dalton's trade value is a 1st PLUS a 2nd? 

[Luvnit2]

(04-24-2019, 12:39 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: I need to make sure I understand this before I die of an aneurysm. 

You think Dalton's trade value is a 1st PLUS a 2nd? 

Yep, look at history of the NFL. He is arguably a top 15 QB over his career. All it takes is one Super Bowl ready team missing a veteran leader at QB to get them to the promised land. So yes, I think AD is worth the 2 picks so feel free to die.

[BengalChris]

(04-24-2019, 12:52 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Yep, look at history of the NFL. He is arguably a top 15 QB over his career. All it takes is one Super Bowl ready team missing a veteran leader at QB to get them to the promised land. So yes, I think AD is worth the 2 picks so feel free to die.

Joe Flacco's trade deal set the bar for middle of the road QBs who haven't done anything in a couple of years and he has a SB.

Just realize that Hue Jackson isn't out there to make a deal at the moment.

 

[Luvnit2]

(04-24-2019, 12:59 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Joe Flacco's trade deal set the bar for middle of the road QBs who haven't done anything in a couple of years and he has a SB.

Just realize that Hue Jackson isn't out there to make a deal at the moment.

 

Joe Flacco's value plummeted because he lost his starting job to a QB who can't throw the football NFL caliber. He has also been subpar to AD in the stats almost every year, so bad comparision.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-24-2019, 10:02 AM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: Walter Football's latest mock:

11. Cincinnati Bengals. Drew Lock, QB, Missouri.

If you've been following the site for a while, you know one of my favorite phrases pertaining to the NFL Draft: New regimes mean new quarterbacks. I've been saying that for so long because it's true. When a new regime comes into a team, it tends to obtain a new quarterback unless a great player at the position is already in place.

Andy Dalton is not a great player. He's as mediocre as it gets; he turns 32 during the upcoming season; and he's due an average of about $17 million per season over the next two years before his contract expires. Unless this new Cincinnati regime loves Dalton, I believe it will move on from Dalton in the next year or so. If Dwayne Haskins falls to the Bengals, it's very realistic that they'll select the Ohio State product, much like the Ravens did with Lamar Jackson last year. Joe Flacco played one final season with his team, and Dalton would do the same in this scenario before Haskins takes over in 2020.

Drew Lock has a great arm and can make any throw, but he really needs to work on his field vision and accuracy. He should probably be taken in the second round, but we've seen teams reach for quarterbacks over the years. And besides, teams like Lock's gritty attitude and work ethic. He loves football, so he'll try hard to improve his flaws.

Read more: http://walterfootball.com/draft2019.php#ixzz5m19LFY2x

Read more at http://walterfootball.com/draft2019.php#OEOHtD6IU50Xzi4W.99

He's perpetuating a media narrative that just isn't true.

Quote:In 2018, there were seven new NFL head coaches. So, that means there should have been seven teams who had a new coach looking to “get their guy”.


But how many of them did that?
One.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2019/4/22/18306010/bengals-quarterback-2019-nfl-draft-dwayne-haskins-drew-lock-daniel-jones

[BengalChris]

(04-24-2019, 01:04 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Joe Flacco's value plummeted because he lost his starting job to a QB who can't throw the football NFL caliber. He has also been subpar to AD in the stats almost every year, so bad comparision.

Dalton's trade value is only worth what some other team is willing to offer.

 

[Big Boss]

(04-24-2019, 01:04 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Joe Flacco's value plummeted because he lost his starting job to a QB who can't throw the football NFL caliber. He has also been subpar to AD in the stats almost every year, so bad comparision.

Dalton has been the starting QB of a team that has had three straight losing seasons.  On top of that, he's had two season-ending injuries in the last four seasons.  

I know the losing seasons don't fall squarely on his shoulders, and I know that a couple of thumb injuries aren't exactly career ruiners. But still, unless you are a bonafide elite talent (which Dalton is not), a couple of losing seasons will hurt your stock.   

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2019, 12:59 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Joe Flacco's trade deal set the bar for middle of the road QBs who haven't done anything in a couple of years and he has a SB.

Just realize that Hue Jackson isn't out there to make a deal at the moment.

 

Dalton has been a far better QB than Flacco though. Even over the last 3 years, which haven't been kind to Dalton.

Flacco: 82.6 rating - 1600 attempts - 9,923 yards - 50 TD's - 34 INT's

Dalton: 89.4 rating - 1424 attempts - 10,092 yards - 64 TD's - 31 INT's 

This is with Dalton getting sacked 25 more times than Flacco. Not to mention Dalton is 2.5 years younger. 

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 01:37 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Dalton has been a far better QB than Flacco though. Even over the last 3 years, which haven't been kind to Dalton.

Flacco: 82.6 rating - 1600 attempts - 9,923 yards - 50 TD's - 34 INT's

Dalton: 89.4 rating - 1424 attempts - 10,092 yards - 64 TD's - 31 INT's 

This is with Dalton getting sacked 25 more times than Flacco. Not to mention Dalton is 2.5 years younger. 

Dalton has been a far better QB? Flacco has a ring and 10 playoff wins. When he faltered the Ravens traded him.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2019, 01:07 PM)Wyche Wrote: He's perpetuating a media narrative that just isn't true.

https://www.cincyjungle.com/2019/4/22/18306010/bengals-quarterback-2019-nfl-draft-dwayne-haskins-drew-lock-daniel-jones

It isn't a law or something, but it often does happen. 

Doug Pederson = Carson Wentz
Matt Nagy = Mitch Trubisky
Mike Pettine = Johnny Manziel
Mike Zimmer = Teddy Bridgewater
Doug Marrone = EJ Manuel
Chuck Pagano = Andrew Luck
Joe Philbin = Ryan Tannehill (Zac Taylor was part of this staff)
Ron Rivera = Cam Newton
Mike Munchak = Jake Locker
Leslie Frazier = Christian Ponder
Steve Wilks = Josh Rosen

Out of 25 first round QB's drafted since 2011, 10 were taken by new regimes (40%). Now it'd be silly to say new regime automatically = new QB. There are too many variables. How does the new coach feel about the current QB? Where are you drafting? How many QB's are 1st round talents? For example, there were 8 new regimes in 2013, but only 1 QB (EJ Manuel) was taken in round 1. 

I think it's fair to say a new regime increases the odds that you'll at least consider a new QB, but Walter basing his mock of Drew Lock entirely on the regime change is kinda silly. 

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2019, 02:14 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Dalton has been a far better QB? Flacco has a ring and 10 playoff wins. When he faltered the Ravens traded him.

Teams weren't trading for a Super Bowl ring from 7 years ago. They were trading for the faltered Joe Flacco you're speaking of.

Dalton's current value should be higher when you consider recent play and age. It's really not all that close. 

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Teams weren't trading for a Super Bowl ring from 7 years ago. They were trading for the faltered Joe Flacco you're speaking of.

Dalton's current value should be higher when you consider recent play and age. It's really not all that close. 

Your statement was Dalton has been a better QB. I totally disagree. But the fact remains they were basically the same the last three years and the Ravens realized it and drafted his replacement. No matter how delusional some fans are about Daltons value to think he would bring much more than Flacco is off the charts.

[*Nately120*]

(04-24-2019, 02:46 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Teams weren't trading for a Super Bowl ring from 7 years ago. They were trading for the faltered Joe Flacco you're speaking of.

Dalton's current value should be higher when you consider recent play and age. It's really not all that close. 

Why even bother comparing Dalton to Flacco when Sam Bradford was traded to the Vikings for a 1st round pick within recent memory?  That right there is more of an indication that it is more about the situation than the player.

I guess that would be comparable if we draft a QB at 11 and then Case Keenum gets hurt and Jay Gruden offers a 1st rounder for Dalton in a last-ditch bid to save his job.

[fredtoast]

(04-24-2019, 04:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote:  No matter how delusional some fans are about Daltons value to think he would bring much more than Flacco is off the charts.

You are the one who is starting to sound delusional.

Flacco is 2 years older than Dalton, and Dalton has had a better passer rating than Flacco for 6 straight years.  

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2019, 04:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Your statement was Dalton has been a better QB. I totally disagree. But the fact remains they were basically the same the last three years and the Ravens realized it and drafted his replacement. No matter how delusional some fans are about Daltons value to think he would bring much more than Flacco is off the charts.

...and I stand by that. Dalton has posted better numbers throughout his career. Overall we are talking about a trade though, and teams trade based on recent performance, which favors Dalton even more. Flacco has been a bonafide scrub since that championship. Especially over the last 3 years. Only the worst of Dalton haters would think their value would be similar.

Dalton's recent performance and age are much better, and this is not debatable.

(04-24-2019, 04:14 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Why even bother comparing Dalton to Flacco when Sam Bradford was traded to the Vikings for a 1st round pick within recent memory?  That right there is more of an indication that it is more about the situation than the player.

I guess that would be comparable if we draft a QB at 11 and then Case Keenum gets hurt and Jay Gruden offers a 1st rounder for Dalton in a last-ditch bid to save his job.

You're right. QB trades have been all over the map. Palmer for a 1st and 2nd. Flacco for a 4th. Favre for a 3rd. Bradford for a 1st. Cassel for a 2nd. Cutler for a pair of 1sts, a 2nd and Kyle Orton.Tannehill and a 6th for a 4th and 7th, etc. A lot of it is about the situation and how desperate the team is.

[masonbengals fan]

Please no QB in the 1st.

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 04:49 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: ...and I stand by that. Dalton has posted better numbers throughout his career. 

In what universe do you live? Winning the Super bowl and winning nine other playoff wins trumps anything Dalton has done or will do in his extremely mediocre career. Every year every team has one goal , win the Super Bowl. Flacco did that and did it with amazing poise. Dalton craps his pants every time he gets in a situation when he needs to step up.

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 04:46 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are the one who is starting to sound delusional.

Flacco is 2 years older than Dalton, and Dalton has had a better passer rating than Flacco for 6 straight years.  

In that same time frame he won a SB and beat the Steelers in a PO game. Being better for six more years won't make Dalton a better QB. Rings and PO wins trump anything and everything any of you homers post. Any benign facts you like to throw in won't convince me that Dalton is ,was , or ever be as good as Flacco.

[Shake n Blake]

(04-24-2019, 05:04 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: In what universe do you live? Winning the Super bowl and winning nine other playoff wins trumps anything Dalton has done or will do in his extremely mediocre career. Every year every team has one goal , win the Super Bowl. Flacco did that and did it with amazing poise. Dalton craps his pants every time he gets in a situation when he needs to step up.

In this universe:

Passer ratings:

2011
Dalton - 80.4
Flacco - 80.9

2012
Dalton - 87.4
Flacco - 87.7

2013
Dalton - 88.8
Flacco - 73.1

2014
Dalton - 83.5
Flacco - 91.0

2015
Dalton - 106.2
Flacco - 83.1

2016 
Dalton - 91.8
Flacco - 83.5

2017
Dalton - 86.6
Flacco - 80.4


2018 
Dalton - 89.6
Flacco - 84.2

Since Dalton came into the league:

Dalton: 88.8 rating - 28,100 yards - 188 TD's - 104 INT's
Flacco: 82.8 rating - 28,039 yards - 152 TD's - 102 INT's 

Despite 333 more attempts, Flacco has less yardage and a whopping 36 fewer TD's. Passer rating is a full 6 points worse. 

As for the playoff thing, Dalton has only played 4 games and they all came with Conserva-Merv as his HC. Flacco was awful in his first 5 playoff games, sporting a 46.5 rating and 1 TD to 6 picks. Not sure he looked all that poised in those. Again though, we're talking about a current trade, and Flacco's super bowl run is ancient history. 

Dalton's value in 2018 >>> Flacco's. I think you know this and that's why you're focusing so much on Flacco's 7 year old playoff run vs Dalton's playoff performance. 

[fredtoast]

(04-24-2019, 05:14 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: In that same time frame he won a SB and beat the Steelers in a PO game. Being better for six more years won't make Dalton a better QB. Rings and PO wins trump anything and everything any of you homers post. Any benign facts you like to throw in won't convince me that Dalton is ,was , or ever be as good as Flacco.

Another "expert" who will argue that Joe Flacco was a better QB than Dan Marino.

And obviously Brad Johnson and Jeff Hostetler were both better QBs than Matt Ryan, Andrew Luck, Daryl Lamonica, and Dan Fouts.

Thanks for showing us all your level of knowledge when it comes to judging QBs, Catman.