Extend AJ Green and/or Tyler Boyd?

[BengalChris]

(04-10-2019, 10:36 AM)Nately120 Wrote: Anyone who wouldn't extend either would obviously somehow be the cousin of both Ross and Tate.

Or Mike Brown. After all, he did send Whitworth packing even though his replacement clearly couldn't get the job done.

[*Nately120*]

(04-12-2019, 01:49 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Or Mike Brown. After all, he did send Whitworth packing even though his replacement clearly couldn't get the job done.

I can't imagine Mike Brown using the internet.

[NKURyan]

(04-11-2019, 11:10 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: How different the league was in 05 compared to 15 shouldn’t be overlooked. Much more pass friendly rules by 15. And unfortunately Dalton didn’t even do it for an entire season in 15. So for me Palmer (05)>Dalton (15).

It's funny how in the span of one thread we've gone from "you can't say Chad's better than AJ based on the era they played in" to "you can't claim Andy is better than Carson without taking into account the era they played in".

The league as a whole may have been more pass happy in 2015 than in 2005, but the Bengals weren't - they ran the ball more in '15. The '15 team ran more rushing plays than the '05 team, and the '05 team passed the ball more than the '15 team did. In 2015 the Bengals ran the ball 48% of the time, while in 2005 the Bengals ran the ball 46% of the time. The '15 Bengals finished 7th in the league in the league in rush attempts while the '05 Bengals were 14th.

Further skewing things is the fact that in 2005 the defense had almost 20 more takeaways than the '15 team did - that offense had the ball a hell of a lot more. You'd think that would give Carson a boost to his stats, or at the least would give them more chances to run the ball to protect the lead, yet you don't see that reflected in any of the offensive numbers.

The injury thing? Come on. I seem to remember Carson's 2005 season ending with him getting carted off the field, so he certainly didn't make it an "entire season", and as we've been told around here time and time again, the post season is what really matters. If you want to look at regular season only, though, I'd argue that if Dalton had stayed healthy this debate would even be more of a non-issue than it already is statistically - Dalton would've got to feed off of a bad 49ers defense and had a game against the Ravens who he has had a lot of success against throughout his career.

You've been given a boat load of stats in support of one side of an issue while offering nothing beyond "I believe the other is better because it's just what I believe" in response. Maybe you guys should go into politics?

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-12-2019, 12:18 PM)NKURyan Wrote: It's funny how in the span of one thread we've gone from "you can't say Chad's better than AJ based on the era they played in" to "you can't claim Andy is better than Carson without taking into account the era they played in".

The league as a whole may have been more pass happy in 2015 than in 2005, but the Bengals weren't - they ran the ball more in '15. The '15 team ran more rushing plays than the '05 team, and the '05 team passed the ball more than the '15 team did. In 2015 the Bengals ran the ball 48% of the time, while in 2005 the Bengals ran the ball 46% of the time. The '15 Bengals finished 7th in the league in the league in rush attempts while the '05 Bengals were 14th.

Further skewing things is the fact that in 2005 the defense had almost 20 more takeaways than the '15 team did - that offense had the ball a hell of a lot more. You'd think that would give Carson a boost to his stats, or at the least would give them more chances to run the ball to protect the lead, yet you don't see that reflected in any of the offensive numbers.

The injury thing? Come on. I seem to remember Carson's 2005 season ending with him getting carted off the field, so he certainly didn't make it an "entire season", and as we've been told around here time and time again, the post season is what really matters. If you want to look at regular season only, though, I'd argue that if Dalton had stayed healthy this debate would even be more of a non-issue than it already is statistically - Dalton would've got to feed off of a bad 49ers defense and had a game against the Ravens who he has had a lot of success against throughout his career.

You've been given a boat load of stats in support of one side of an issue while offering nothing beyond "I believe the other is better because it's just what I believe" in response. Maybe you guys should go into politics?

A”boatload of stats” that prove Dalton is better than Palmer was? Umm...no.

Dalton has had exactly 3/4 of an elite level season (15)

Palmer had (05 & 15). He was also actually considered one of the very best QB’s in the league before his injury. Like up there with Brady and Manning at the time.

Nobody except you and the rest of the card carrying members of Andy’s Army would ever try to claim Dalton has been one of the absolute best QB’s in the league.

[NKURyan]

(04-12-2019, 12:29 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: A”boatload of stats” that prove Dalton is better than Palmer was? Umm...no.

Dalton has had exactly 3/4 of an elite level season (15)

Palmer had (05 & 15). He was also actually considered one of the very best QB’s in the league before his injury. Like up there with Brady and Manning at the time.

Nobody except you and the rest of the card carrying members of Andy’s Army would ever try to claim Dalton has been one of the absolute best QB’s in the league.

Yes, a boatload of stats. I've compared record as a Bengals starter, number of playoff appearances, TDs averaged per season, INTs averaged per season, yards per completion, yards per game, QB rating, # of come-from-behind victories, TDs per game in their best seasons, INTs per game in their best seasons, yards per catch and yards per game in their best seasons, quarterback rating in their best seasons, surrounding weapons in their best seasons, frequency of rushing the ball for both offenses, # of turnovers given to them by their defenses... that's a lot of stats, and they all favor Andy Dalton at both an individual season and career level.

You, meanwhile, are choosing to ignore all of these and to back up your claim you are offering... nothing. Like I said, you should be a politician.

Putting words into my mouth, as well... I've never claimed Dalton has been "one of the absolute best QB's in the league". I'm telling you he's had a better career than Carson Palmer, which he has. You don't even have to be a member of "Andy's Army" (whatever the hell that even means) to come to that conclusion when you a) watch the games and b) look at their numbers.

I actually remember when Carson was looked at as the best quarterback in the league... it lasted one season, and look at the other QBs in the league in 2005 he was being compared to - you've got Brady, Brees (pre-NO), a young Roethlisberger, Manning, a bunch of old guys on the downside of their careers, and a bunch of nobodies. Not exactly 2015, when you had guys like Rivers, Brees, Manning, Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Rodgers, Newton, Wilson, and Roethlisberger all slinging it.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-12-2019, 02:56 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Yes, a boatload of stats. I've compared record as a Bengals starter, number of playoff appearances, TDs averaged per season, INTs averaged per season, yards per completion, yards per game, QB rating, # of come-from-behind victories, TDs per game in their best seasons, INTs per game in their best seasons, yards per catch and yards per game in their best seasons, quarterback rating in their best seasons, surrounding weapons in their best seasons, frequency of rushing the ball for both offenses, # of turnovers given to them by their defenses... that's a lot of stats, and they all favor Andy Dalton at both an individual season and career level.

You, meanwhile, are choosing to ignore all of these and to back up your claim you are offering... nothing. Like I said, you should be a politician.

Putting words into my mouth, as well... I've never claimed Dalton has been "one of the absolute best QB's in the league".I'm telling you he's had a better career than Carson Palmer, which he has. You don't even have to be a member of "Andy's Army" (whatever the hell that even means) to come to that conclusion when you a) watch the games and b) look at their numbers.

I actually remember when Carson was looked at as the best quarterback in the league... it lasted one season, and look at the other QBs in the league in 2005 he was being compared to - you've got Brady, Brees (pre-NO), a young Roethlisberger, Manning, a bunch of old guys on the downside of their careers, and a bunch of nobodies. Not exactly 2015, when you had guys like Rivers, Brees, Manning, Brady, Ryan, Stafford, Rodgers, Newton, Wilson, and Roethlisberger all slinging it.

And I’m telling you he hasn’t. Dalton has won zero playoff games, and it not highly thought of outside Cincinnati. Trust me I’ve tried to defend him over the years to those that think he’s he’s even worse than he is. Remember the “Dalton Line?”

Funny you bring up all the good QB’ in 2015 and conveniently leave out Palmer, who had an MVP caliber season that year.

[BengalChris]

(04-12-2019, 07:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And I’m telling you he hasn’t. Dalton has won zero playoff games, and it not highly thought of outside Cincinnati. Trust me I’ve tried to defend him over the years to those that think he’s he’s even worse than he is. Remember the “Dalton Line?”

Funny you bring up all the good QB’ in 2015 and conveniently leave out Palmer, who had an MVP caliber season that year.

Yep, outside of the Cinci faithful Dalton is looked upon as a guy who will never take you to the promised land. Think along the lines of Tannehill and Borders and Carr, guys teams have looked to move on from. (Now I'm assuming Carr is entering his last year in Oakland even though Gruden has given his blessing of Carr, since that blessing can change on a moments notice and I expect that it will if things don't turn around this year.)

The "Dalton line" is alive and well really, and many teams have gone out and gotten themselves a better QB. A few have gotten worse at QB as well.

Dalton does have his pluses though and is probably underrated around the league simply because he's Cinci's QB and his prime time performances (which is where people outside Cinci get to see him the most) have been rather poor. Still, he's a QB who has had AJ Green to throw to his entire career and guys like Tannehill, Borders and Carr have never had a WR like that and we could be looking on them differently if they had.

Palmer has always been a better QB in my mind and it's never occurred to me that Dalton might be his equal, let alone better. But that's only one position out of 22 that play on offense and defense and make up a team. The QB isn't everything in my book.

Still, I believe that AJ Green, if he plays well over the next 4 years will become a HoF nominee. By that I mean he puts up a few more 1,000 yard seasons. If he stays healthy he can do it and he can do it with Dalton at QB. I believe this team can win a playoff game with Dalton at QB, however, the number of tries he has left is limited.

 

[NKURyan]

(04-12-2019, 07:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And I’m telling you he hasn’t. Dalton has won zero playoff games, and it not highly thought of outside Cincinnati. Trust me I’ve tried to defend him over the years to those that think he’s he’s even worse than he is. Remember the “Dalton Line?”

Funny you bring up all the good QB’ in 2015 and conveniently leave out Palmer, who had an MVP caliber season that year.

Based on what? Show me some statistics to back up such a claim, because I've shown you plenty that strike it down. Talk about the "Dalton Line" if you want, on a statistical level Palmer's been below it. Do you really think Palmer is all that highly thought of outside of Cincinnati or (maybe) Phoenix? How about in Oakland? Because I doubt most fans even think of him when naming great QBs of the last decade.

If you want to stake your claim to Palmer being the better QB solely on the fact that he has a whopping one playoff win, fine... at least that's something. I'd counter that Palmer then followed that up with a six turnover game to take his team right back out of contention. It's not like Carson's been a great postseason QB either.

I didn't mention Palmer in 2015, but it doesn't change anything - neither one of them were going to be mentioned as being among the best QBs because of all those other names I mentioned. It was a lot easier for Palmer to be held up as one of those guys in 2005 because there were a lot less of those guys at the time, and even then those notions had faded within a couple of years.

Remember, this whole conversation started when it was stated that you'd have to be "delusional" (not stated by you, to be fair) to think Andy was a better QB than Carson. At the very least I think people should at least be able to see these stats and numbers and say that's simply an exaggeration. The difference isn't that great at all.

Carson was one of the most frustrating players I've ever watched, and I say that as a guy who still has an autographed jersey of his hanging up in my house. 

[KillerGoose]

(04-13-2019, 02:22 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Based on what? Show me some statistics to back up such a claim, because I've shown you plenty that strike it down. Talk about the "Dalton Line" if you want, on a statistical level Palmer's been below it. Do you really think Palmer is all that highly thought of outside of Cincinnati or (maybe) Phoenix? How about in Oakland? Because I doubt most fans even think of him when naming great QBs of the last decade.

If you want to stake your claim to Palmer being the better QB solely on the fact that he has a whopping one playoff win, fine... at least that's something. I'd counter that Palmer then followed that up with a six turnover game to take his team right back out of contention. It's not like Carson's been a great postseason QB either.

I didn't mention Palmer in 2015, but it doesn't change anything - neither one of them were going to be mentioned as being among the best QBs because of all those other names I mentioned. It was a lot easier for Palmer to be held up as one of those guys in 2005 because there were a lot less of those guys at the time, and even then those notions had faded within a couple of years.

Remember, this whole conversation started when it was stated that you'd have to be "delusional" (not stated by you, to be fair) to think Andy was a better QB than Carson. At the very least I think people should at least be able to see these stats and numbers and say that's simply an exaggeration. The difference isn't that great at all.

Carson was one of the most frustrating players I've ever watched, and I say that as a guy who still has an autographed jersey of his hanging up in my house. 

The issue with this argument is if you start considering Palmer OUTSIDE of Cincinnati, many of your statistical arguments fail. Throughout their whole careers, Palmer is statistically superior in many of the stats you listed.

I have no issues with saying Dalton has had a better career as a Bengal, but he has not had a better career than Palmer as a whole.

[NKURyan]

(04-13-2019, 05:27 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: The issue with this argument is if you start considering Palmer OUTSIDE of Cincinnati, many of your statistical arguments fail. Throughout their whole careers, Palmer is statistically superior in many of the stats you listed.

I have no issues with saying Dalton has had a better career as a Bengal, but he has not had a better career than Palmer as a whole.

Except even if you look at Carson's whole career, Andy still has a higher touchdown percentage, a lower INT percentage, higher quarterback rating, better record, and more playoff seasons than Carson does, Andy's only 2 4th quarter comebacks behind Carson in far fewer seasons, with both having virtually the same completion percentage and yards per catch. The number of stats that Palmer is "statistically superior" in aren't as many as people think outside of raw cumulative numbers, and those are only because he's played 60 more games than Andy has. You could give him yards per game, I guess, but that's just an indication that Carson's played on more bad teams. I just don't see it. 

Take into account how much you had to pay for each guy, too, and that skews it even more IMO.

But yeah, the original conversation was their career as a Bengal.

[KillerGoose]

(04-13-2019, 07:08 PM)NKURyan Wrote: Except even if you look at Carson's whole career, Andy still has a higher touchdown percentage, a lower INT percentage, higher quarterback rating, better record, and more playoff seasons than Carson does, Andy's only 2 4th quarter comebacks behind Carson in far fewer seasons, with both having virtually the same completion percentage and yards per catch. The number of stats that Palmer is "statistically superior" in aren't as many as people think outside of raw cumulative numbers, and those are only because he's played 60 more games than Andy has. You could give him yards per game, I guess, but that's just an indication that Carson's played on more bad teams. I just don't see it. 

Take into account how much you had to pay for each guy, too, and that skews it even more IMO.

But yeah, the original conversation was their career as a Bengal.

You don't get to pick and choose what is "virtually" the same and what is better for Andy. If Carson and Andy are "virtually the same" when it comes to completion percentage and yards per completion (62.5% and 11.7 for Carson, 62.3% and 11.5 for Andy), then they are also "virtually the same" in touchdown percentage and interception percentage (4.7% and 3% for Carson, 4.8% and 2.7% for Andy). To put it into easier numbers, Andy throws a touchdown, on average, every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 37 attempts. Carson threw a touchdown every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 33 attempts. Just say it how it is.

Andy has slightly better touchdown and interception percentages while Carson has slightly better yards per completion and completion percentage. Carson also has higher yards per game, the best statistical season between both of their careers (2015) and higher yards per attempt. On top of this, if you are just going to say "Palmer was on bad teams, that's why he has a higher YPG" all I'm going to say is "Andy has the amount of playoff appearances that he does because he was on good teams." 

It's a dumb argument, see? Both of those points hold some water, but it isn't the real reason for either of them. Andy is a good quarterback AND had good teams (from 2013-2015, the Bengals had arguably the best roster in the league from top to bottom.) Carson WAS on bad teams but he also, when healthy, was a really good quarterback. That 2015 Cardinals team didn't have the talent that Cincinnati had, but he lit the league on fire that year. 

[thompson19osu]

Probably alone in this camp but I would not extend AJ. Yes he is great but in the playoff games or big games he has timely drops that lead to INTs or fumbles.

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-13-2019, 08:17 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You don't get to pick and choose what is "virtually" the same and what is better for Andy. If Carson and Andy are "virtually the same" when it comes to completion percentage and yards per completion (62.5% and 11.7 for Carson, 62.3% and 11.5 for Andy), then they are also "virtually the same" in touchdown percentage and interception percentage (4.7% and 3% for Carson, 4.8% and 2.7% for Andy). To put it into easier numbers, Andy throws a touchdown, on average, every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 37 attempts. Carson threw a touchdown every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 33 attempts. Just say it how it is.

Andy has slightly better touchdown and interception percentages while Carson has slightly better yards per completion and completion percentage. Carson also has higher yards per game, the best statistical season between both of their careers (2015) and higher yards per attempt. On top of this, if you are just going to say "Palmer was on bad teams, that's why he has a higher YPG" all I'm going to say is "Andy has the amount of playoff appearances that he does because he was on good teams." 

It's a dumb argument, see? Both of those points hold some water, but it isn't the real reason for either of them. Andy is a good quarterback AND had good teams (from 2013-2015, the Bengals had arguably the best roster in the league from top to bottom.) Carson WAS on bad teams but he also, when healthy, was a really good quarterback. That 2015 Cardinals team didn't have the talent that Cincinnati had, but he lit the league on fire that year. 

Well said, Goose.

[Ravage]

(04-09-2019, 09:00 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: This. Boyd has been good one year out of three. AJ has been good every year (injuries being his only drawback).

Has to be both though. Especially with Ross still being a question mark.

All things considered, Boyd was good his rookie year as well. Sure, it wasn't anything like last season, but 54 catches & 603 yds for a rookie 2nd round WR who started 2 total games wasn't a bad year by any stretch. 2017 on the other hand...

I'd extend them both. A.J. should retire a Bengal. And we've lost enough WR's that we developed the last few years (Sanu, Jones) to let yet another one go, in Boyd. As long as Boyd doesn't break the bank (he shouldn't) keep them both. 

[NKURyan]

(04-13-2019, 08:17 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: You don't get to pick and choose what is "virtually" the same and what is better for Andy. If Carson and Andy are "virtually the same" when it comes to completion percentage and yards per completion (62.5% and 11.7 for Carson, 62.3% and 11.5 for Andy), then they are also "virtually the same" in touchdown percentage and interception percentage (4.7% and 3% for Carson, 4.8% and 2.7% for Andy). To put it into easier numbers, Andy throws a touchdown, on average, every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 37 attempts. Carson threw a touchdown every 21 attempts while throwing an interception every 33 attempts. Just say it how it is.

Andy has slightly better touchdown and interception percentages while Carson has slightly better yards per completion and completion percentage. Carson also has higher yards per game, the best statistical season between both of their careers (2015) and higher yards per attempt. On top of this, if you are just going to say "Palmer was on bad teams, that's why he has a higher YPG" all I'm going to say is "Andy has the amount of playoff appearances that he does because he was on good teams." 

It's a dumb argument, see? Both of those points hold some water, but it isn't the real reason for either of them. Andy is a good quarterback AND had good teams (from 2013-2015, the Bengals had arguably the best roster in the league from top to bottom.) Carson WAS on bad teams but he also, when healthy, was a really good quarterback. That 2015 Cardinals team didn't have the talent that Cincinnati had, but he lit the league on fire that year. 

This is a completely fair response, and is the kind I've been looking for from someone pretty much sense this discussion began. Thanks for actually backing up your opinion unlike the others. You actually come across like you know what you're talking about and aren't just spitting out the same tired talking points you've heard from others. Rep to you.

Remember, this whole thing was started when it was said somebody would have to be "delusional" to think that Carson was a better quarterback for the Bengals than Andy was, which was my primary point of contention to begin with. 

The two have posted very similar numbers through their careers. I wouldn't have guessed they'd be as close as they are prior to this discussion (I would've assumed Carson was farther ahead), and I just think maybe instead of holding Carson up and saying "someone would be delusional to think Andy is on this level", we could give Andy just a *little* credit (which you have) for pretty much matching Carson at a fraction of the cost. But then there is, of course, a group of fans who won't give Andy credit for anything.

It's fair to say that a big reason Andy's had a better surrounding cast (particularly on defense) during his time here is because he cost so much less than Carson did. If they're going to post similar stats, Andy's been the better value.

[fredtoast]

We don't need to extend Green.  We really need to see what he does in 2019.  He will be 32 in 2020.  You have to be very careful when investing a lot of money in a WR that age.

On one hand you have to consider that he has only had 2 fully healthy seasons in the last 5 years.  And in those 2 seasons ('15, '17) he put up good numbers (avg 81 rec, 1188 yds, 9 td), but far from the league leaders.

On the other hand you have to consider that he was having the best season of his career just 3 years ago when he was on pace for 117 rec and 1714 yds before getting injured.

Don't be surprised if we take a WR in the first three rounds.  It is just business.  Lawyer Milloy was a fan favorite in New England and made the Pro Bowl in '02.  In '03 he was released with three years left on his contract when he refused to take a pay cut.  Patriot fans were furious, but seemed to have forgiven the team by the time they beat Caroline in the Super Bowl that year.

[fredtoast]

I support Dalton almost as much as anyone here, but everything else being equal I would take Palmer. People act like he was all crippled in Arizona, but he still had the cannon.

Deep passes really don't show arm strength as much as deep outs or other medium depth routes that have to be thrown like a bullet. Palmer was still killing those throws with the Cards.

The numbers are hard to compare because passing stats went up a lot from '04 to '11, so the best way to judge is how they compared to the rest of the league. Palmer had four top-tens in passer rating; Dalton has one. Palmer led the league in tds one season and had 6 top-tens; Dalton has 3 top tens. In passing yards Palmer finished in the top 5 four times and in the top 10 eight times; Dalton has one top 10 and zero top-5..

[NKURyan]

(04-14-2019, 01:58 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The numbers are hard to compare because passing stats went up a lot from '04 to '11, so the best way to judge is how they compared to the rest of the league.  Palmer had four top-tens in passer rating; Dalton has one. Palmer led the league in tds one season and had 6 top-tens; Dalton has 3 top tens.  In passing yards Palmer finished in the top 5 four times and in the top 10 eight times; Dalton has one top 10 and zero top-5..

...and Carson's had three seasons with over 20 INTs, while Andy's only had one. Carson's had 3 seasons where he threw as many or more INTs than TDs (one was an injury shortened season), while Andy's only ever come close to doing that once. Carson fumbles more, and Andy does more with his legs than Carson ever did (10 more TDs and almost 700 yards more in 6 less seasons). We could do this forever if we want.

Said it before and I'll say it again, if the two were going to post as similar numbers as they did, give me the cheaper guy so that I can spend that money or the higher draft pick elsewhere (AJ Green).

[impactplaya]

I think before that injury in that 05 playoff game
Carson was just about equal of Manning and Brady.if not there he was darn close.
Palmer found himself in shootouts with the Colts
and Browns over time where he played as well as you could ask of a QB. the Bengals had some really porous defenses while CP was under center.
Carson could make any throw and was really good at ball distribution.
I thought Carson had a bit of a gunslinger mindset.
just look at 05 throw to Chris Henry.
1st possession Carson said lets attack them deep.
it worked then you know the rest.......
Carson was never the same after that injury.
the clock in his head sped up..forcing him to make errounous decsions as soon as the pocket shrunk.

to Andys credit. hes had to go through alot of OCs
Gruden..Hue..Zamp..Lazor..now Taylor..thats 5.
more than CP had to work with...
and Dalton has had a worse oline.
both QBs have shown when the pieces are in order...they can find the
end zone.
Carson had more egos strong personalities to deal with.
but CP had defenses that made Derek Anderson look like Warren Moon.
Andy had the weaker ollines but better defenses behind him.
its hard to say which QB is better but I think pre injury CP was better QB.
and as far as the TD INT....CP I think his stat line was 32 TD 12 INT
in that 05 season.
but I think his injury really affected his confidence in the pocket

[BengalChris]

(04-14-2019, 01:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We don't need to extend Green.  We really need to see what he does in 2019.  He will be 32 in 2020.  You have to be very careful when investing a lot of money in a WR that age.

On one hand you have to consider that he has only had 2 fully healthy seasons in the last 5 years.  And in those 2 seasons ('15, '17) he put up good numbers (avg 81 rec, 1188 yds, 9 td), but far from the league leaders.

On the other hand you have to consider that he was having the best season of his career just 3 years ago when he was on pace for 117 rec and 1714 yds before getting injured.

Don't be surprised if we take a WR in the first three rounds.  It is just business.  Lawyer Milloy was a fan favorite in New England and made the Pro Bowl in '02.  In '03 he was released with three years left on his contract when he refused to take a pay cut.  Patriot fans were furious, but seemed to have forgiven the team by the time they beat Caroline in the Super Bowl that year.

Good points.

Bengals never beat anyone in Super Bowls though. Bengals players go elsewhere to play in Super Bowls.