The Dalton Dilemma

[BengalChris]

(04-23-2019, 09:56 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The Bengals are in a catch-22 situation with Andy Dalton. While he has been a decent QB in his tenure with the Bengals he hasn't really been effective since 2015. I would agree that letting o-line members walk and completely missing on their replacements have crippled the offense, can we expect different outcomes with the basically the same o-line. Do we keep Andy and resign him to a more lucrative contract? Do we keep him for two more years and draft his replacement now? Do we trade him now when he has the highest trade value and do a complete rebuild now? Weather you are an Andy Dalton fan or not all these options may lead you to the Super Bowl or lead you to the toilet bowl. I love the human being Andy but I don't believe he is the long term answer to get results we desire.

I'm not sure it's a Dalton dilemma.

Despite the obvious problems with the team, the front office has done little to correct the problems for several years now.

How many years in a row does the OL need to be at the top of the problem list?

For how many years has the LB corp been Burfict helped out by "some other guys"?

Mike Brown may have been able to convince Zac Taylor that he wants to win a SB, his actions say the opposite.

I have no idea what is going to happen in the coming draft, but I wouldn't be surprised if the team returned to its panic draft decisions of the 90s now that the level headed Marvin Lewis is gone. Mike Brown's 90s draft philosophy seemed to be "draft the player's ceiling and ignore his floor".

If we draft well and play well this season I'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[XsandOs]

(04-23-2019, 08:59 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The way free agency went we have as much chance as a snow ball in hell to win a super bowl or even win  playoff game. Drafting a QB now and also adding other pieces later in this draft and filling other needs next year is not going to make a difference one way or another. The fact is the team needs a complete rebuild. Marvin and his group have had the better part of a decade to succeed and they have failed. Give the reins to Zac and let him decide what needs to be done.

You are suggesting change at QB only, but are stating that the Team needs a complete rebuild.

Additionally; you are stating that drafting Haskins and another piece later in the draft will not make a difference one way or another.

I don't subscribe to that thought process.

This Team is close to competing. Literally 3 or so pieces away. So a rebuild doesn't make sense to me.

In the same vein, I like the Bengals playing in meaningful games in Nov and December. Playoffs or not. That, to me, is good football. I don't want to go into any season, conceding failure. That is exactly what rebuilding implies.

Would I like us in playoffs and SB? Absolutely! And I believe Dalton can help us get there. Heck, if Goff and Foles can do it, Dalton can too.

But wholesale change or changes which I feel are unnecessary and compromises potential of entertaining/winning season(s), are unattractive to me.

[BengalsGenius]

I'm always amazed at how good the fantasy of a rookie quarterback is. The wrong guy could send us back to the dark ages.
In 1992 the Bengals new regime brought in David Shula and he drafted David Klingler. 5 seasons later Boomer took over the team had had a great final few games and everyone loved him again. Andy's deal is extremely team friendly. It makes waaaaaay to much sense to let him learn the offense and let Taylor start with some security. If it doesn't work draft a guy next year. Haskins/Murray aren't locks. Dalton has had moments of greatness, is a saint off the field, teammates seem to love him. Lets fix o-line and see what happens.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-23-2019, 05:54 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: I would argue that Rodgers, Brady, Breeze , Ben are good and thus Dalton is just decent.

Those guys, plus Russell Wilson, are great to elite, thus Andy is good.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-23-2019, 06:10 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Haskins threw fifty TDs in the Big Ten , Andy threw 27 his senior year in the Mountain west conference but Haskins is a sure fire bust while Andy is a god to some fans.  I just can't figure some thinking that goes on here. 

Quick question, what conference did Dalton and the Horned Frogs beat in the Rose Bowl?


There is a big difference in Urban Meyer's up tempo system and Gary Patterson's defensive oriented approach as well.  

That being said, I don't see anyone calling Haskins a sure fire bust.  I see folks saying there are bigger needs in the early rounds in a draft FULL of defensive talent.  Our d, as we know, was historically bad last season.  It just makes sense to try and capitalize on that talent in this draft.  There is also a bit of wariness over Haskins only having one year under his belt....and that's not irrational at all.

Another thing that gives me pause is the effectiveness of Meyer's elite college QBs at the next level.  So far, the only success has been Alex Smith, and how long did it take him to have even a modicum of success?  Hell, most of them never play in the NFL.  He's had a string of one hit wonders at OSU, and frankly, that does give me pause in regards to his latest protege.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-24-2019, 09:06 AM)Wyche Wrote: Quick question, what conference did Dalton and the Horned Frogs beat in the Rose Bowl?


There is a big difference in Urban Meyer's up tempo system and Gary Patterson's defensive oriented approach as well.  

That being said, I don't see anyone calling Haskins a sure fire bust.  I see folks saying there are bigger needs in the early rounds in a draft FULL of defensive talent.  Our d, as we know, was historically bad last season.  It just makes sense to try and capitalize on that talent in this draft.  There is also a bit of wariness over Haskins only having one year under his belt....and that's not irrational at all.

Another thing that gives me pause is the effectiveness of Meyer's elite college QBs at the next level.  So far, the only success has been Alex Smith, and how long did it take him to have even a modicum of success?  Hell, most of them never play in the NFL.  He's had a string of one hit wonders at OSU, and frankly, that does give me pause in regards to his latest protege.

Eh, one of the best CFB of all time has had how many Elite NFL QBs come out? I don't think the system in which UM (or any CFB team) runs is to much pause for concern. It's just really hard to be a good starting QB in the NFL. 

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2019, 06:10 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Haskins threw fifty TDs in the Big Ten , Andy threw 27 his senior year in the Mountain west conference but Haskins is a sure fire bust while Andy is a god to some fans.  I just can't figure some thinking that goes on here. 

I just can't figure where you heard anyone say Haskins is a sure fire bust or Dalton is a god.  Maybe you would understand a little more if you looked at what people actually said.


BTW Troy Smith threw more tds in a season than Dalton.  Bet you were squealing for us to draft him also, right?  Because td passes thrown in the Big Ten is the best way to project who will be good in the NFL.

[fredtoast]

(04-23-2019, 07:35 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: If Dalton Played at Ohio state he may have only started one season also. If Haskins (who would be a junior this year if he would have stayed at osu) played two more years he could have set multiple Big Ten records.

J.T. Barrett holds the Big Ten record for td passes and no NFL team wants him.

[*ochocincos*]

(04-24-2019, 02:04 AM)XsandOs Wrote: You are suggesting change at QB only, but are stating that the Team needs a complete rebuild.

Additionally; you are stating that drafting Haskins and another piece later in the draft will not make a difference one way or another.

I don't subscribe to that thought process.

This Team is close to competing. Literally 3 or so pieces away. So a rebuild doesn't make sense to me.

In the same vein, I like the Bengals playing in meaningful games in Nov and December. Playoffs or not. That, to me, is good football. I don't want to go into any season, conceding failure. That is exactly what rebuilding implies.

Would I like us in playoffs and SB? Absolutely! And I believe Dalton can help us get there. Heck, if Goff and Foles can do it, Dalton can too.

But wholesale change or changes which I feel are unnecessary and compromises potential of entertaining/winning season(s), are unattractive to me.

Not to mention the fact that the QB is the most expensive position to pay after rookie contract if you have a good one. If this team is doing a rebuild, wouldn't it make more sense to build the team around a QB first since it will be cheaper to extend those positions and then add the QB? That's pretty much what LAR and KC have done and it's paid off well so far. They haven't won the Super Bowl yet but they've gotten really far into the playoffs because they've had a really good team and put in a QB on a rookie contract to allow them to use that money elsewhere to make it an elite team. Sure, they'll have to let some guys go once the QB hits FA, but enjoy the ride while you have it.

[Daddy-O]

(04-23-2019, 09:56 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The Bengals are in a catch-22 situation with Andy Dalton. While he has been a decent QB in his tenure with the Bengals he hasn't really been effective since 2015. I would agree that letting o-line members walk and completely missing on their replacements have crippled the offense, can we expect different outcomes with the basically the same o-line. Do we keep Andy and resign him to a more lucrative contract? Do we keep him for two more years and draft his replacement now? Do we trade him now when he has the highest trade value and do a complete rebuild now? Weather you are an Andy Dalton fan or not all these options may lead you to the Super Bowl or lead you to the toilet bowl. I love the human being Andy but I don't believe he is the long term answer to get results we desire.

So you'd want to trade a top 15 QB in his prime for the "potential" to find a starter 2 or 3 years from now, in a weak QB draft?

No thanks.  This strategy would be idiotic considering this team has specialty groups also in their prime, most of which will be gone or too old by the time a new QB is ready.

Why not fix the problem that keeps Dalton from being a top-tier QB, the putrid O-line?  And maybe, just maybe, fix the LB position so the defense can actually defend a pass.

I can just see it now, we trade Dalton and then he goes to another team and all of a sudden looks like Joe Montana.  Meanwhile, we draft a new QB who never pans out.  Remember the 90's?  Again, no thanks.

[XenoMorph]

(04-23-2019, 08:49 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Really quick name a top defensive player or team from the Mountain west conference, this year or any year.

bruce irving.

[Daddy-O]

(04-23-2019, 01:12 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Where did Brady get drafted again???? I think if Haskins is there, we will take him and groom him to be a backup until if and when he surpasses Dalton..... or, for trade value. If he's not there, I think we probably grab a backup QB in the 4th-6th rounds.

Not sold on Haskins.  He's got a lot of tools except escapability.... and you need a whole lot of that behind the Bengals O-line.

You better be able to read a defense and get rid of a ball in 2 seconds or you A$$ is grass.

[Hoofhearted]

(04-24-2019, 10:08 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: So you'd want to trade a top 15 QB in his prime for the "potential" to find a starter 2 or 3 years from now, in a weak QB draft?

No thanks.  This strategy would be idiotic considering this team has specialty groups also in their prime, most of which will be gone or too old by the time a new QB is ready.

Why not fix the problem that keeps Dalton from being a top-tier QB, the putrid O-line?  And maybe, just maybe, fix the LB position so the defense can actually defend a pass.

I can just see it now, we trade Dalton and then he goes to another team and all of a sudden looks like Joe Montana.  Meanwhile, we draft a new QB who never pans out.  Remember the 90's?  Again, no thanks.

Because QB is the only position that makes every other position better. No other position has that sort of affect on the roster. What are the chances of having a great o-line, LB, and other role players throughout the lineup while solely using the philosophy of a draft and develop team? It's like asking if you'd rather have a boat or a mystery box. A boat is a boat, but the mystery box can be anything! It can even be a boat! I'll take the mystery box.   

[Nicomo Cosca]

(04-24-2019, 10:08 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: So you'd want to trade a top 15 QB in his prime for the "potential" to find a starter 2 or 3 years from now, in a weak QB draft?

No thanks.  This strategy would be idiotic considering this team has specialty groups also in their prime, most of which will be gone or too old by the time a new QB is ready.

Why not fix the problem that keeps Dalton from being a top-tier QB, the putrid O-line?  And maybe, just maybe, fix the LB position so the defense can actually defend a pass.

I can just see it now, we trade Dalton and then he goes to another team and all of a sudden looks like Joe Montana.  Meanwhile, we draft a new QB who never pans out.  Remember the 90's?  Again, no thanks.

Dalton being top 15 at this point is debatable. I’d have him more in the high teens, but regardless, we should strive for even better.

As far as Dalton going somewhere else and looking like Joe Montana? Lol! This is why it’s so hard to discuss Dalton on this board. The extremes of both sides. He’s either completely horrible or borderline elite if not for this reason or that reason (OL, HC, OC, etc) when in reality he’s nowhere close to either one.

[*Wyche'sWarrior*]

(04-24-2019, 09:37 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Eh, one of the best CFB of all time has had how many Elite NFL QBs come out? I don't think the system in which UM (or any CFB team) runs is to much pause for concern. It's just really hard to be a good starting QB in the NFL. 

I'll agree with that.....but there is certainly precedence regarding Meyer's QBs, much like Alabama.  Urban will go down as one of the best college coaches of all time.  He has an excellent system at that level, and gets good players throughout the lineup, like Alabama.  Haskins, to me, is the classic boom/bust type.  Then you add in the limited playing time of a year.  If this draft wasn't so loaded with defensive talent, and our defense wasn't so bad, I might be more interested in him that high in the draft.  As it stands, I'm not.  Also, it appears the next couple of drafts will have better depth of talent at that position.

[sandwedge]

(04-24-2019, 11:19 AM)Wyche Wrote: I'll agree with that.....but there is certainly precedence regarding Meyer's QBs, much like Alabama.  Urban will go down as one of the best college coaches of all time.  He has an excellent system at that level, and gets good players throughout the lineup, like Alabama.  Haskins, to me, is the classic boom/bust type.  Then you add in the limited playing time of a year.  If this draft wasn't so loaded with defensive talent, and our defense wasn't so bad, I might be more interested in him that high in the draft.  As it stands, I'm not.  Also, it appears the next couple of drafts will have better depth of talent at that position.

Not to mention the insane talent OSU had at WR last season! 

[*Nately120*]

(04-24-2019, 10:08 AM)Daddy-O Wrote: I can just see it now, we trade Dalton and then he goes to another team and all of a sudden looks like Joe Montana.  Meanwhile, we draft a new QB who never pans out.  Remember the 90's?  Again, no thanks.

I recall us trading Boomer to the Jets and Palmer to the Raiders and them going 4-12, but hey, maybe we trade Dalton and he leads the Dolphins/Redskins/etc to 4 SB titles.

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(04-24-2019, 10:39 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Dalton being top 15 at this point is debatable. I’d have him more in the high teens, but regardless, we should strive for even better.

As far as Dalton going somewhere else and looking like Joe Montana? Lol! This is why it’s so hard to discuss Dalton on this board. The extremes of both sides. He’s either completely horrible or borderline elite if not for this reason or that reason (OL, HC, OC, etc) when in reality he’s nowhere close to either one.

LOL

Some people will not give up on giving up on Andy

Let's use your own logic

Is either one of their OT top 15? No? Is either one of their OT in the high teens? No? Need to draft OT before drafting QB.
Are all three of their LB top 15? No? Are any of their LB ranked in the high teens? No? Need to draft LB before drafting QB.

Also, many great NFL QBs would not have been great with Marvin Clewless as their HC for their entire career. Trying to compare QBs stats without factoring in HC is pointless. Would Brady have 5 rings if ML was in New England for his entire career? I would think not.

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 12:28 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: LOL

Some people will not give up on giving up on Andy

Let's use your own logic

Is either one of their OT top 15? No? Is either one of their OT in the high teens? No? Need to draft OT before drafting QB.
Are all three of their LB top 15? No? Are any of their LB ranked in the high teens? No? Need to draft LB before drafting QB.

Also, many great NFL QBs would not have been great with Marvin Clewless as their HC for their entire career. Trying to compare QBs stats without factoring in HC is pointless. Would Brady have 5 rings if ML was in New England for his entire career? I would think not.

So exactly when is it going to be ok to talk and that is what this is just talk, about moving on from a mediocre QB who has failed miserably with GOOD teams. Every Dalton supporter wants to act like we have had no talent what so ever in his tenure. While I agree that the last three years aren't all his fault you can't be blind to the fact that he is a decent QB and will probably never be a great one here. The FO did almost nothing to make the line better to help him to be at his best. He will be a FA after next year and taking someone who COULD possibly step into his role should some other team value him more than we do.

[Catmandude123]

(04-24-2019, 12:28 PM)Forever Spinning Vinyl Wrote: LOL

Some people will not give up on giving up on Andy

Let's use your own logic

Is either one of their OT top 15? No? Is either one of their OT in the high teens? No? Need to draft OT before drafting QB.
Are all three of their LB top 15? No? Are any of their LB ranked in the high teens? No? Need to draft LB before drafting QB.

Also, many great NFL QBs would not have been great with Marvin Clewless as their HC for their entire career. Trying to compare QBs stats without factoring in HC is pointless. Would Brady have 5 rings if ML was in New England for his entire career? I would think not.

So exactly when is it going to be ok to talk and that is what this is just talk, about moving on from a mediocre QB who has failed miserably with GOOD teams. Every Dalton supporter wants to act like we have had no talent what so ever in his tenure. While I agree that the last three years aren't all his fault you can't be blind to the fact that he is a decent QB and will probably never be a great one here. The FO did almost nothing to make the line better to help him to be at his best. He will be a FA after next year and taking someone who COULD possibly step into his role should some other team value him more than we do.