Instead of early Linebacker

[yang]

I was listening to the Locked on Podcast yesterday and their mock draft scenarios and thought they came up with an interesting idea, and I like it. Take Best Player available in the first, and then draft safety Juan Thornhill in the 2nd. He is a stud who runs insanely fast and hits, projects well. Move Shawn Williams to Linebacker which is essentially what many teams are doing to counter all the TE's and new offenses. Draft a second tier LB or even 2 later.

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5. JUAN THORNHILL | Virginia 6002 | 205 lbs. | SR. Altavista, Va. (Altavista) 10/19/1995 (age 23.53) #21

BACKGROUND: A three-star athlete recruit out of high school, Juan Thornhill is one of the best athletes to ever come out of Altavista, leading the high school to five state championships in three seasons (three in basketball, two in football). He played quarterback on offense and posted 1,299 passing yards and 1,562 rushing yards as a senior, adding five interceptions as a safety on defense. On the basketball court, Thornhill recorded over 1,000 career points and made SportsCenter with his high-flying dunks. He received scholarship offers to play collegiate basketball, but he chose football. Ranked as an “athlete” recruit, he was the No. 22 player in the state and committed to Virginia (his first offer) as a safety prior to his junior season, subsequently shutting down his recruitment. He played both cornerback and safety over his collegiate career. Thornhill accepted his invitation to the 2019 Senior Bowl.




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YEAR (GP/GS) TKLS TFL SACK FF PD INT NOTES 2015: (9/0) 2 0.0 0.0 0 0 0 2016: (12/11) 45 3.0 1.0 1 10 3 CB 2017: (12/12) 63 4.5 0.5 0 16 4 11 CB, 1 SS; Third Team All-ACC 2018: (13/13) 98 4.5 0.0 0 13 6 SS; First Team All-ACC Total: (46/36) 208 12.0 1.5 1 39 13 22 CB, 14 SS

HT WT ARM HAND WING 40-YD 20-YD 10-YD VJ BJ SS 3C BP COMBINE 6002 205 31 1/8 08 3/4 74 3/4 4.42 2.60 1.57 44 11’09” - - 21 (no shuttle or 3-cone – hamstring) PRO DAY - - - - - 4.20 6.86 - (stood on Combine runs, jumps, bench)

STRENGTHS: Long, rangy size…smooth shuffle and clean redirection in space…comfortable in man-to-man, using physicality and contact balance to attach and ride patterns…recognizes route concepts and has the diagnosis abilities of a former quarterback…flashes the reaction quickness to drive and undercut routes…aboveaverage tracking, judgement and ball skills (his 13 career interceptions rank sixth-best in school history)…averaged 13.6 yards per interception return (13/177/0)…doesn’t lack for toughness as a tackler and takes proper pursuit angles…graduated with his bachelor’s degree (December 2018)…versatile experience with 36 starts spread between cornerback (22) and safety (14).

WEAKNESSES: Lanky and lacks a prototypical build for an NFL safety…lacks twitchy turn-and-run skills…not a burner…inconsistent take-on skills downhill…doesn’t back down as a tackler, but arrives hot and needs to improve his strike zone…overly patient with his reads and would like to see him take more chances…grabby downfield, attracting holding calls.

SUMMARY: A three-year starter at Virginia, Thornhill arrived in Charlottesville as a safety before moving outside to corner his sophomore and junior seasons. He moved to the “Sabre” strong safety position as a senior and led the team in tackles (98) and interceptions (6), playing everywhere from nickel to single-high to linebacker (showed he can just as easily press as he can play from deep positioning). Thornhill, who wears No. 21 for Sean Taylor, doesn’t play as fast as he timed, but he has a smooth lower body and doesn’t get off-balance in his movements. He has plus anticipation and ball skills, but will take the worst of hits when his tackling technique isn’t perfect. Overall, Thornhill is more smooth than sudden, which causes him to be a beat late at times, but his instincts, field range and roster versatility are strong selling points, projecting as a high alignment safety who can walk down and cover slot receivers.

GRADE: 2nd Round (#49 overall)

[yang]

They also took WR Arcega Whiteside in the 3rd which I like a lot as well. We could actually see all three picks contribute early.

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11. JJ ARCEGA-WHITESIDE | Stanford 6020 | 225 lbs. | rJR. Inman, S.C. (Dorman) 12/31/1996 (age 22.33) #19

BACKGROUND: A three-star wide receiver recruit out of high school, Jose Joaquin “JJ” Arcega-Whiteside was born in Zaragoza, Spain and spent his youth traveling around Europe with his parents, who were both professional basketball players. They moved to the United States when he was 7 years old, relocating to his mother’s hometown of Inman, S.C. Arcega-Whiteside grew up playing soccer, track and basketball, but started to gravitate toward football, playing varsity wide receiver as a freshman at Dorman. As a senior, he was named Gatorade South Carolina Player of the Year with 108 receptions for 1,824 yards and 20 touchdowns. ArcegaWhiteside earned all-state honors in three sports (football, basketball and track) during the 2013-14 season and was considered a McDonald’s All-American nominee in basketball. He was considered a top-75 wide receiver in the 2015 recruiting class and committed to Stanford the summer prior to his senior season. His mother (Valerie) was an All-American at Appalachian State where she set 26 school records before playing overseas. His father (Joaquin) had a long career overseas and two of his uncles (Fernando and Jose) played for Spain in the 1984 Olympics. Arcega-Whiteside speaks three languages (English, Spanish and Portuguese) and still speaks to his father in Spanish. He chose to skip his senior season and enter the 2019 NFL Draft.

YEAR (GP/GS) REC YDS AVG TD NOTES 2015: Redshirted 2016: (12/2) 24 379 15.8 5 2017: (11/11) 48 781 16.3 9 All-Pac 12 Honorable Mention 2018: (12/12) 63 1,059 16.8 14 Second Team All-Pac 12; Led Pac-12 in touchdown receptions; Team Captain Total: (35/25) 135 2,219 16.4 28

HT WT ARM HAND WING 40-YD 20-YD 10-YD VJ BJ SS 3C BP COMBINE 6020 225 33 1/4 09 1/2 79 7/8 - - - - - - - - (no workout – right knee) PRO DAY 4.49 2.64 1.58 34 09’11” 4.41 7.23 - (no bench – choice)

STRENGTHS: Good-sized, gangly target with outstanding length…boxes out without pushing off…magnet for defensive penalties due to frame and catch radius…hands catcher and extends with power to stab the ball away from his body…plays above the rim and owns jump balls, contorting his body mid-air…wasn’t asked to run a full route tree but collects his feet to make quick, crisp cuts…powers through arm tackles after the catch, dragging defenders…physically tough and takes a beating…2018 team captain…seven touchdowns on 11 red-zone targets, finishing No. 3 in the FBS with 14 touchdown grabs in 2018.

WEAKNESSES: Struggles to separate vertically vs. speed…tightly wound in his hips and lower body…upright route runner with little deception, forecasting his path to cornerbacks…lacks diversity or burst in his releases or route setup…inexperienced making reads/adjustments based on coverage…looks to run before securing, leading to drops…missed at least one game each of the last three years due to injury, including a right ankle issue as a junior (November 2018); unable to work out at the scouting combine due to his right knee (February 2019).

SUMMARY: A two-year starter at Stanford, Arcega-Whiteside improved each season in the Cardinal pro-style scheme, finishing second in school history with 28 receiving touchdowns. The best compliment you can give a wideout is when everyone knows where the ball is going, yet it can’t be stopped – and that’s often how it felt studying Arcega-Whiteside in jump-ball situations. His basketball background and bloodlines are evident in the way he boxes out and rebounds the football, especially in the end zone. Arcega-Whiteside doesn’t create consistent separation vs. press or at the top of routes due to upright, rigid movements. However, he has
[41]

a unique ability to body corners and finish contested catches, extending his long arms and high-pointing with focus. Overall, Arcega-Whiteside lacks route savvy but he physically dominates at the catch point and projects as a specialized receiver who can be more with added refinement in his patterns.

GRADE: 2nd-3rd Round (#67 overall)

[Hammerstripes]

Even if you move Williams to LB, he's still not going to be the type of guy that covers the whole field and plays the run like White or Bush can.

Just like last year, I'm so sick of seeing the same weakness OVER an OVER. We drafted a C last year to fix the problem. I know a lot of people are sour on Price, but he played damn good in preseason and had a decent start to the season before getting injured.

We have to come out of this with a Modern NFL LB. And there's not a lot of them in the draft

[McC]

The whole S as a LB notion has never really worked for anybody and the notion was permanently debunked by the Pats when they ran the ball down the Chargers' throats in the playoffs. Granted, it allowed the Chargers to stymie the Ravens' high school offense but you certainly can't build your defense around it and definitely don't want to spend your first round pick on the notion.

LB's need to be LB's and that's all there is to it.

[McC]

(04-23-2019, 11:01 AM)yang Wrote: They also took WR Arcega Whiteside in the 3rd which I like a lot as well.  We could actually see all three picks contribute early.

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11. JJ ARCEGA-WHITESIDE | Stanford          6020 | 225 lbs. | rJR.          Inman, S.C. (Dorman)         12/31/1996 (age 22.33) #19

BACKGROUND: A three-star wide receiver recruit out of high school, Jose Joaquin “JJ” Arcega-Whiteside was born in Zaragoza, Spain and spent his youth traveling around Europe with his parents, who were both professional basketball players. They moved to the United States when he was 7 years old, relocating to his mother’s hometown of Inman, S.C. Arcega-Whiteside grew up playing soccer, track and basketball, but started to gravitate toward football, playing varsity wide receiver as a freshman at Dorman. As a senior, he was named Gatorade South Carolina Player of the Year with 108 receptions for 1,824 yards and 20 touchdowns. ArcegaWhiteside earned all-state honors in three sports (football, basketball and track) during the 2013-14 season and was considered a McDonald’s All-American nominee in basketball. He was considered a top-75 wide receiver in the 2015 recruiting class and committed to Stanford the summer prior to his senior season. His mother (Valerie) was an All-American at Appalachian State where she set 26 school records before playing overseas. His father (Joaquin) had a long career overseas and two of his uncles (Fernando and Jose) played for Spain in the 1984 Olympics. Arcega-Whiteside speaks three languages (English, Spanish and Portuguese) and still speaks to his father in Spanish. He chose to skip his senior season and enter the 2019 NFL Draft.

YEAR (GP/GS) REC YDS AVG TD NOTES     2015: Redshirted 2016: (12/2) 24 379 15.8 5 2017: (11/11) 48 781 16.3 9 All-Pac 12 Honorable Mention 2018: (12/12) 63 1,059 16.8 14 Second Team All-Pac 12; Led Pac-12 in touchdown receptions; Team Captain Total: (35/25) 135 2,219 16.4 28  

HT WT ARM HAND WING 40-YD 20-YD 10-YD VJ BJ SS 3C BP  COMBINE 6020 225 33 1/4 09 1/2 79 7/8 - - - - - - - - (no workout – right knee) PRO DAY       4.49 2.64 1.58 34 09’11” 4.41 7.23 - (no bench – choice)

STRENGTHS: Good-sized, gangly target with outstanding length…boxes out without pushing off…magnet for defensive penalties due to frame and catch radius…hands catcher and extends with power to stab the ball away from his body…plays above the rim and owns jump balls, contorting his body mid-air…wasn’t asked to run a full route tree but collects his feet to make quick, crisp cuts…powers through arm tackles after the catch, dragging defenders…physically tough and takes a beating…2018 team captain…seven touchdowns on 11 red-zone targets, finishing No. 3 in the FBS with 14 touchdown grabs in 2018.  

WEAKNESSES: Struggles to separate vertically vs. speed…tightly wound in his hips and lower body…upright route runner with little deception, forecasting his path to cornerbacks…lacks diversity or burst in his releases or route setup…inexperienced making reads/adjustments based on coverage…looks to run before securing, leading to drops…missed at least one game each of the last three years due to injury, including a right ankle issue as a junior (November 2018); unable to work out at the scouting combine due to his right knee (February 2019).

SUMMARY: A two-year starter at Stanford, Arcega-Whiteside improved each season in the Cardinal pro-style scheme, finishing second in school history with 28 receiving touchdowns. The best compliment you can give a wideout is when everyone knows where the ball is going, yet it can’t be stopped – and that’s often how it felt studying Arcega-Whiteside in jump-ball situations. His basketball background and bloodlines are evident in the way he boxes out and rebounds the football, especially in the end zone. Arcega-Whiteside doesn’t create consistent separation vs. press or at the top of routes due to upright, rigid movements. However, he has
[41]

a unique ability to body corners and finish contested catches, extending his long arms and high-pointing with focus. Overall, Arcega-Whiteside lacks route savvy but he physically dominates at the catch point and projects as a specialized receiver who can be more with added refinement in his patterns.

GRADE: 2nd-3rd Round (#67 overall)

If our first two picks were a S and a WR, I'd be ready to kill somebody.  

[sandwedge]

I like Arcega-Whiteside pick! Somehow I ended up watching a lot of Stanford games last season and this guy was their go to guy when they needed a play. I think this might allow the Bengals to use Boyd more in different alignments. Remember Zak saying west coast is the premise of his offense and this kid screams west coast offense.
If I was entertaining the notion of moving a safety to LB, then I might as well just draft Bush instead. Teaching a player a new position doesn't always work out like we hope. I also think Williams played pretty well last season at Safety.

[SunsetBengal]

(04-23-2019, 01:31 PM)McC Wrote: If our first two picks were a S and a WR, I'd be ready to kill somebody.  

Yep, you just summed up my thoughts on this hypothetical situation. 

[Hammerstripes]

i'm a huge draft guy and the way I would do things is much different than the Bengals. However, they are my team and there are a few realties that you have to deal with:

1. Don't ever expect to get a huge upgrade at any position in free agency.
2. The only way you will see them get a player of any importance is on draft day (draft or trade)
3. They will never trade up in the first round after the Ki-Jana ordeal

With those things in mind, I can't go anther year watching the following:

1. Bobby Hart at RT
2. Our LB play

We can probably get a RT in the 2nd round that would be a solid starter. I don't think we can get a modern day NFL LB in the 2nd round or later. With that being said, I am praying that one of the Devins is available at 11, because Lord knows we won't move up a spot or two to get him.

[Benton]

Just Yining to your Yang (haha)...

Quote:Take Best Player available in the first

What if that's an LB? Part of the reason a lot of folks have us mocked to take a defensive player here is because there's a lot of talent at LB/DL in this draft. If you're looking at strictly BPA, there's a good chance it will be one of those positions.

That aside, I think I'm not sure I want to go into next season with the LB group we've got, and trying to convert a player from any position to another is always a gamble. Guys do it, and there are some guys who have had great careers in the NFL at different spots than what they played in college. I'd just feel a lot more comfortable not taking that kind of gamble with a position we need that much. And not one so high. If we're picking to fill a spot in the second, take someone likely to contribute next season, and wait on gambles until the third or later. Hell, we've got the entire sixth round this year, take all those guys and try them out as tackles and LBs and see what sticks.

[yang]

(04-23-2019, 01:29 PM)McC Wrote: The whole S as a LB notion has never really worked for anybody and the notion was permanently debunked by the Pats when they ran the ball down the Chargers' throats in the playoffs.  Granted, it allowed the Chargers to stymie the Ravens' high school offense but you certainly can't build your defense around it and definitely don't want to spend your first round pick on the notion.

LB's need to be LB's and that's all there is to it.

The Patriots used a safety as a linebacker the entire super bowl to great effect.  It is becoming more common as defenses grapple with receiving TE's, slot recievers, and RB's as receivers.    The Bengals actually used him in this role near the line much more than people realize.  In fact, most believe Williams is ideally suited for the role.  His bigger and a good tackler with speed.  

[yang]

(04-23-2019, 01:43 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Yep, you just summed up my thoughts on this hypothetical situation. 

My thoughts early on till I thought about it.  Would you care if they both end up being all pros?  I think they are both stud players with massive upside.  Teams are running they hybrid defense more and more and this opens up Williams for that role.   If John Ross doesn't pan out or Boyd or Green leaves you have a replacement.  If they all pan out this is fantastic.  He is one of the best YAC receivers in the draft which is what Zac wants, right?  

Plus you can free up the first round pick. 

[yang]

What if it goes

1. Murray
2. Bosa
3.Williams
4. Allen
5. White
6.Hockenson
7.Oliver
8.Gary
9.J Taylor
10. Bush

11?

This could easily happen and then you have to go BPA in the 2nd as well. Thornhill could easily be that guy. Are you going to ignore it and reach for a LB?

[Essex Johnson]

(04-23-2019, 01:31 PM)McC Wrote: If our first two picks were a S and a WR, I'd be ready to kill somebody.  

Well I give that a 1% change of happening.. 

[*bengalfan74*]

The way the Bengals avoid free agency like the plague they severely limit their BPA ability even in somewhat normal offseasons.

When you're coming off a season with a historically bad defense that set records, bad ones ! for LBers giving up receiving yards and giving up 3rd down conversions at an epic rate. Then you let go of your best LBer (a needed move) and then all you do is re-sign a guy who's average.

I just don't see any way they can not go LBer early and probably often.

[The Real Deal]

(04-23-2019, 01:31 PM)McC Wrote: If our first two picks were a S and a WR, I'd be ready to kill somebody.  

The actual first pick in the mock he’s talking about was Jonah Williams. Then they took S and WR in rounds 2 and 3.

[PikesPeakUC]

(04-23-2019, 05:15 PM)yang Wrote: What if it goes

1. Murray
2. Bosa
3.Williams
4. Allen
5. White
6.Hockenson
7.Oliver
8.Gary
9.J Taylor
10. Bush

11?  

This could easily happen and then you have to go BPA in the 2nd as well.  Thornhill could easily be that guy.   Are you going to ignore it and reach for a LB?

Most people, I think, are operating under the belief that White, or at least Bush, will be there at 11. I don't think anyone is calling for the Bengals to draft Mack Wilson at 11. 

I would much rather take a linebacker, especially if White/Bush are there in the 1st, or Wilson is there in the 2nd, than spend a pick on a safety considering that the safety class has so much more depth than the linebacker group, and considering that our safety situation is in pretty good shape all things considered. 

[yang]

(04-23-2019, 05:22 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: Well I give that a 1% change of happening.. 

So then you would probably really hate following that up with TE Josh Oliver in the third.  haha

[yang]

(04-23-2019, 05:45 PM)PikesPeakUC Wrote: Most people, I think, are operating under the belief that White, or at least Bush, will be there at 11. I don't think anyone is calling for the Bengals to draft Mack Wilson at 11. 

I would much rather take a linebacker, especially if White/Bush are there in the 1st, or Wilson is there in the 2nd, than spend a pick on a safety considering that the safety class has so much more depth than the linebacker group, and considering that our safety situation is in pretty good shape all things considered. 

I agree that I think a LB will be there.   I did hate the Jonah pick in the first and will hate/hate if they pick Wilson soner than the 6th round

[Hammerstripes]

(04-23-2019, 05:15 PM)yang Wrote: What if it goes

1. Murray
2. Bosa
3.Williams
4. Allen
5. White
6.Hockenson
7.Oliver
8.Gary
9.J Taylor
10. Bush

11?  

This could easily happen and then you have to go BPA in the 2nd as well.  Thornhill could easily be that guy.   Are you going to ignore it and reach for a LB?

Then you take the highest rated guy if you can't move down.

That could be:  Jonah Williams, Wilkins, Haskins, Sweat, Fant, Lawrence, Ford, Lock, Burns .....

[SunsetBengal]

(04-23-2019, 05:40 PM)The Real Deal Wrote: The actual first pick in the mock he’s talking about was Jonah Williams. Then they took S and WR in rounds 2 and 3.

Oh?  Somehow I missed that part.  If they took Williams at 11, those other two would be good picks in rounds 2 and 3.