Return teams and coverage under Marvin

[fredtoast]

I felt that the Bengals usually had pretty good kick off and punt coverage teams under Marvin. I can't find team numbers for return averages, but in his 16 year tenure the Bengals only allowed 11 P/KO return tds. That is tenth in the league, but we are tied with 5 other teams, so basically around league average (12.6)

However the Bengals were dead last in the league with just 5 combined tds (2 KO, 3 P) during Marvin's tenure.

The kickoff return is slowly getting phased out, bit the Bengals need to concentrate on getting more production from punt returns.

We have had some elite return men (Peter Warrick, Deltha O'Neal, Adam Jones) but they still did not rack up a lot of tds.

[Truck_1_0_1_]

(05-06-2019, 11:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I felt that the Bengals usually had pretty good kick off and punt coverage teams under Marvin. I can't find team numbers for return averages, but in his 16 year tenure the Bengals only allowed 11 P/KO return tds. That is tenth in the league, but we are tied with 5 other teams, so basically around league average (12.6)

However the Bengals were dead last in the league with just 5 combined tds (2 KO, 3 P) during Marvin's tenure.

The kickoff return is slowly getting phased out, bit the Bengals need to concentrate on getting more production from punt returns.

We have had some elite return men (Peter Warrick, Deltha O'Neal, Adam Jones) but they still did not rack up a lot of tds.

Erickson is also a great returner; not elite, but he picks up big chunks constantly.

[Benton]

For now, it's still part of the game. But I wouldn't build too much around it. In a few years it'll be: place the ball on the X yard line following Y, or place it on the N yard line following Z.

I feel bad for those guys who made some kind of career, either as a punter, return specialist or just a special teams body.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2019, 12:57 PM)Benton Wrote: For now, it's still part of the game. But I wouldn't build too much around it. In a few years it'll be: place the ball on the X yard line following Y, or place it on the N yard line following Z.

I feel bad for those guys who made some kind of career, either as a punter, return specialist or just a special teams body.

Kick off returns are the ones that will be phased out (if any).  When you have 22 guys running at each other full speed there are going to be more injuries.

Punt returns still have most of the guys on the line blocking with only the gunners running full speed at the blockers and return man down field.  So they are not as dangerous.

I predict the kick off return will be changed to a punt return.  Basically get a 4th and 15 at your own 35.  You can either punt or go for it in cases where you used to try the onside kick.  Still get all the excitement of a return without as much danger of injury.

[fredtoast]

(05-06-2019, 12:43 PM)Truck_1_0_1_ Wrote: Erickson is also a great returner; not elite, but he picks up big chunks constantly.

Erickson is not bad at all.  But I'd be willing to give some other guys a try.

John Ross had 4 kick off return tds in college.

Darius Phillips had 5 kick off return tds, a punt return td, and 5 interception return tds in college.

Brandon Wilson had 2 kick off return tds and an interception return td in college.  4.36 forty at his pro day.

[bengals67]

Fred

You sure come up with some interesting stats on important issues.

Pretty average record on returns- at best- which seems typical for the Marv era.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-06-2019, 12:57 PM)Benton Wrote: For now, it's still part of the game. But I wouldn't build too much around it. In a few years it'll be: place the ball on the X yard line following Y, or place it on the N yard line following Z.

I feel bad for those guys who made some kind of career, either as a punter, return specialist or just a special teams body.

It'll be just like back in Midget League ball, where they placed the ball at the 40, in lieu of kickoffs.

[impactplaya]

Erickson needs some competition at returning.
hes basically been handed the job and the truth is no TDs
over 2 yrs isnt going to cut it.
if Erickson on KO gets good blocking and finds a crease
he gets yards.
but he lacks that extra gear to turn that 30 yd return into a TD.
hes not really good at stop starting and making guys miss.

[804 fan]

(05-06-2019, 11:30 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Erickson needs some competition at returning.
hes basically been handed the job and the truth is no TDs
over 2 yrs isnt going to cut it.
if Erickson  on KO gets good blocking and finds a crease
he gets yards.
but he lacks that extra gear to turn that 30 yd return into a TD.
hes not really good at stop starting and making guys miss.

Finally someone else is seeing the same thing I am. Erickson is not the great returner that some believe that he is but more of the credit should go to the blocking of the kick return team because of the holes they create. If Erickson had any speed he would have at least five returns go for touchdowns. How often do you see him get an big return then get brought down from behind or on the sideline about ten yards from scoring? Its hardly any elusiveness and room he makes on his own but more heroes the seam now make someone miss and score. I just hope we can have Phillips return punts and either he or Wilson return kickoffs.

[impactplaya]

Erickson..."so coach if theres a lane to run through
I run toward the goalposts?"

Coach "yes Alex"

Erickson "oh ok...I just thought it was ok to run toward the cheerleaders or the kicking net!"

Coach..".No Alex ithe object is to run toward the goalposts....north and south"

I thinlk Erickson lacks explosion and his hips are stiff.
look hes a feel good story. undrafted kid from Americas heartland.
works hard.
but he was one of Marv's teachers pets.
its time to upgrade the return games and 4th WR spot.
I think Morgan Jr can be a darkhorse

[Forever Spinning Vinyl]

(05-07-2019, 04:40 PM)impactplaya Wrote: Erickson..."so coach if theres a lane to run through
I run toward the goalposts?"

Coach "yes Alex"

Erickson "oh ok...I just thought it was ok to run toward the cheerleaders or the kicking net!"

Coach..".No Alex ithe object is to run toward the goalposts....north and south"

I thinlk Erickson lacks explosion and his hips are stiff.
look hes a feel good story. undrafted kid from Americas heartland.
works hard.
but he was one of Marv's teachers pets.
its time to upgrade the return games and 4th WR spot.
I think Morgan Jr can be a darkhorse

Ridiculous

There is currently nothing wrong with the WRs. The routes that were drawn up the last 5 years or so didn't involve drag routes or crossing routes and that puts both QB and receiver at a disadvantage.

AJ Green and Boyd are going to get most of the snaps
Ross now has an offensive minded HC, let's see what ZT and company can come up for him.
Core had a couple of drops, deal with it. He started games as a rookie when called upon and while he didn't tear it up, he didn't suck either. Plays well on ST.
Erickson is tough and decisive. That is often far more important to a PR than burner speed. Patrick Robinson was one of the fastest Bengals that I've ever seen but he was stupid and, trying to show off his speed, ran past his blockers before they could engage their defenders.
Malone has enough talent to play in this league and the Bengals know this. Better than most of the receivers in this last draft.
Tate impressed enough that maybe they felt that after the 4th round, there wasn't anyone available to push a WR off of this roster.
Hunter Sharp is on his 4th team in 2 plus years(Denver, NY Giants, Pittsburgh). Started a game for the Giants in 2017 and caught 5 passes including one for a TD.

Not an all world roster, but other important areas needed to be addressed and by the time that the late round picks came up, T Williams, Davis, Anderson and Brown were much more talented players than the remaining WRs. Unless he has a breakout year, this will most likely be Erickson's last year in Cincinnati

[fredtoast]

Erickson is a very good return man. He has twice finished in the top 5 in the league kick return average (2nd in 2016, 5th in 2018), and he finished 8th in punt return average in 2018.

But the people that don't like him will never give him any credit. I think it is another case of "highlight deception" like we see with QBs throwing deep passes. Fans see a bunch of highlights of QBs completing deep passes and they think every QB in the league is completing a high percentage of deep passes. This leads to them ripping oin Dalton for not completing a high percentage of deep passes when in fact he does as good or better than most QBs in the league. Same thing with guys returning punts/kicks for tds. Fans only see the good ones in highlights and don't see all the poor ones.

So you can complain all you want about how Erickson is not any good, but the production numbers show he is good. And EVERY return man needs some good blocking to post a high average.

[NKURyan]

Honestly I'd like to see them try to get one of the rookie RBs out there on returns. Because you potentially have 4 good backs once Anderson is healthy (if the rookies turn out to be what we hope they can be) you can afford the risk of playing one of them on returns, and it gives whoever is #4 on the chart a chance to get on the field.

Not sure what experience they have back there if any, but I've just always liked the idea of having a RB back there over a WR or CB. Feel like they'd be better at reading their blockers and have more of a chance to break a few tackles.

[NKURyan]

(05-07-2019, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Erickson is a very good return man.  He has twice finished in the top 5 in the league kick return average (2nd in 2016, 5th in 2018), and he finished 8th in punt return average in 2018.

But the people that don't like him will never give him any credit.  I think it is another case of "highlight deception" like we see with QBs throwing deep passes.  Fans see a bunch of highlights of QBs completing deep passes and they think every QB in the league is completing a high percentage of deep passes.  This leads to them ripping oin Dalton for not completing a high percentage of deep passes when in fact he does as good or better than most QBs in the league.  Same thing with guys returning punts/kicks for tds.  Fans only see the good ones in highlights and don't see all the poor ones.

So you can complain all you want about how Erickson is not any good, but the production numbers show he is good.  And EVERY return man needs some good blocking to post a high average.

I think he's the Andy Dalton of punt returners. Consistently good, but you know there are people out there with higher ceilings.

[Destro]

Have Ross back there returning kicks.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-07-2019, 06:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you can complain all you want about how Erickson is not any good, but the production numbers show he is good.  And EVERY return man needs some good blocking to post a high average.

Not sure who has claimed that Ericson isn't any good.  As for me, I think that he's good enough to keep a job.  It's tough for me to get excited for the guy, when every time he takes the easy route out of bounds, I wish he would have cut it back for the extra 3 or 5 yards.  You never know, he might make someone miss, they might slip, whatever.  The running out of bounds is what I don't like about his return game.

[Sled21]

Only on this board can a team have one of the leagues top returners, while simultaneously having fans complain about him not being any good......

[*Nate (formerly eliminate08)*]

(05-06-2019, 11:44 AM)fredtoast Wrote: I felt that the Bengals usually had pretty good kick off and punt coverage teams under Marvin. I can't find team numbers for return averages, but in his 16 year tenure the Bengals only allowed 11 P/KO return tds. That is tenth in the league, but we are tied with 5 other teams, so basically around league average (12.6)

However the Bengals were dead last in the league with just 5 combined tds (2 KO, 3 P) during Marvin's tenure.

The kickoff return is slowly getting phased out, bit the Bengals need to concentrate on getting more production from punt returns.

We have had some elite return men (Peter Warrick, Deltha O'Neal, Adam Jones) but they still did not rack up a lot of tds.

I think your thread has a lot more to do with Darrin Simmons than Marvin Fred...

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 01:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I think your thread has a lot more to do with Darrin Simmons than Marvin Fred...

Agree.  He has been here as long as Marvin, hasn't he?

[Shake n Blake]

Unlike some (and there definitely are some), I like Erickson as a returner. You can't argue with the results. That said, I agree that he doesn't seem to have that extra gear to get a TD every now and then. Years ago, we used to mix Brandon Tate with Adam Jones. Tate was the main guy, but we'd mix Adam in for that chance that he'd break one.

I wouldn't mind trying that again with someone else on the team. Preferably someone who runs around a 4.3 and can cut on a dime.