If I told you once, I told you twice...

[*ochocincos*]

(05-08-2019, 10:03 AM)jj22 Wrote: Dalton has only had 2 losing seasons in his 8 year career. And not because of a bunch of 8-8 seasons that can  be claimed as no losing seasons. That has to mean something. It would for any other qb. It's unprecedented really.

The media wants us to get rid of the qb that only had 2 losing season in 8 years. Think about that for a second. Never would they demand that from another franchise. Never would they be mocking new qb's to the team whose qb had that track record. Fans shouldn't fall for it.

I don't mind us within the jungle discussing Dalton and even wanting to move on from him. But we shouldn't let the media determine that given Daltons record with the team and the fact there are teams with far worse records who should in theory then need a new qb. But don't nearly get the hate Dalton gets.

The media views Dalton's records based on the playoffs, not regular season. And that's a bit unfair because some other "better" QBs have also not won a playoff game but been to the playoffs even less.

[jj22]

(05-08-2019, 08:13 AM)HuDey Wrote: I’m going to go out on a limb and say that everyone leaves this thread feeling exactly the same about Dalton as they did when they came into it. He’s been here for 8 seasons, we know who he is. I don’t buy the media shaping angle either. Outsiders who have mostly only seen him in playoffs or prime time probably don’t have a high opinion about his abilities. Bengal fans who watch him with regularity see the things that he does well, but they also see his limitations. You can win with Andy Dalton if you make things easy for him. That gets significantly more difficult to do once the post season rolls around.

True, but he can get us to the significantly harder postseason.

Which is more than I can say for some of these other media darling qb, who have gotten 5+ years.

The media was calling for Dalton's head after the 2013 season. He didn't even get 3 seasons. This after 3 straight playoff appearances (and winning seasons). That's why I stand with Dalton. Too many other qb's get passes, longer leashes with far less team success. That's why I bring up Mariota and Winston which people think are still young and on their rookie contracts so shouldn't be considered, yet couldn't sniff Daltons record his first 3 years. Folks forget the heat Dalton took so early in his career. Heat that you'll never see again for a qb who led his team to winning records and playoff appearances back to back to back to start their career.

You'll never see it again. It was unprecedented when it happened to Dalton, and you haven't seen it since (and won't for it's already been 9 years, and any rookie qb with a run like his will surely be considered a future star). For that we should stand with Dalton against this fake news perception.

[THE PISTONS]

Honestly, when you haven't won a playoff game in 27+ years...you're not going to get a ton of positive media attention. I'd say, anecdotally that we have one of the smallest fan bases in the NFL too.

I do agree with the OP that guys like Winston are overrated.

Dalton is good enough to win with IF the Bengals can surround him with an offensive line and weapons at the skill positions. They have the weapons at the skill positions. The offensive line is a work in progress.

I think a good offensive line is what separates most QB's in the NFL from being good or just average. There are a few guys that seem to be able to transcend that though like Aaron Rodgers. But, even he doesn't win consistently.

[XenoMorph]

(05-07-2019, 06:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Uh, no.

4300 yds, 30 tds, 70.4 completion percentage, and 99.7 passer rating.

Cousins was not the problem in Minnesota last year.

he wasn't the answer either at the price tag.

[grampahol]

(05-07-2019, 05:28 PM)HarleyDog Wrote: A SB win would have the same naysayers shouting they supported him all along. I hate fake media and fake people. Shit, I just realized I said that on a message board where probably less than 10 people know my real name? 

I can honestly say that I AM a grampa..The hol part? Well....that's up to debate, but I was a heavy drinker for a long time if that tells you anything at all. I finally gave it up a few years ago for good. I haven't given up on my grandkids though.. 

As for Dalton..He does just fine as our QB and we should support him in 'all things Andy Dalton'..  I really pay very little attention to the alleged egg-spurts.. 

[KillerGoose]

(05-08-2019, 10:03 AM)jj22 Wrote: Dalton has only had 2 losing seasons in his 8 year career. And not because of a bunch of 8-8 seasons that can be claimed as no losing seasons. That has to mean something. It would for any other qb. It's unprecedented really.

The media wants us to get rid of the qb that only had 2 losing season in 8 years. Think about that for a second. Never would they demand that from another franchise. Never would they be mocking new qb's to the team whose qb had that track record. Fans shouldn't fall for it.

I don't mind us within the jungle discussing Dalton and even wanting to move on from him. But we shouldn't let the media determine that given Daltons record with the team and the fact there are teams with far worse records who should in theory then need a new qb. But don't nearly get the hate Dalton gets.

Dalton has had three losing seasons in his eight year career. He has had three straight losing seasons. Matt Ryan has had three losing seasons in 11 years with multiple playoff wins and a SB appearance. Cam has had five losing seasons in eight seasons, but this is the issue with judging QBs based off of wins alone. Cam isn’t the reason they are losing all of those games, nor is he he reason why they are winning all those games. You can’t do it alone in football. The same goes for Dalton. Dalton is a fine QB, and I do like him and think Cincinnati can have success with him.

While I wouldn’t say Dalton alone has been the reason Cincinnati has lost in the playoffs, he has put up stinkers in every game. He gets credit for leading Cincinnati there, but he has hasn’t delivered in the playoffs. If he can do that, the respect will come.

[jj22]

Dalton left hurt this last season and he had a winning record at that time 5-3. 2 losing seasons in 8 years. Crazy huh. Wouldn't know that if you listened to the media.

[NKURyan]

(05-08-2019, 10:28 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Honestly, when you haven't won a playoff game in 27+ years...you're not going to get a ton of positive media attention. 

The thing is, I'm not sure that's true. If you're inept enough for long enough I think eventually people start to rally around you as the "lovable losers" everyone finally wants to get over the hump. I'd think there would be a lot of average NFL fans (outside of Pittsburgh and Cleveland) who would actively root for the Bengals to finally win a playoff game simply because it's been so long.

Look at the Chicago Cubs, or the Boston Red Sox in baseball. Both teams had long postseason droughts and I remember droves of people rooting for them (up to the point that finally succeeded and the fanbases became insufferable). Hell, look at the Cleveland Browns right now, a team so incapable over the last decade plus that they're probably getting as much national coverage as anybody just because they *might* be good.

We've never seen that kind of attention towards the Bengals even in 2015 when they were really good. It has struck me as odd at times. I'd imagine most of ESPN's primary audience wasn't even alive the last time the Bengals won a playoff game, and I'm surprised people don't root for them solely because of that.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-08-2019, 12:54 PM)NKURyan Wrote: The thing is, I'm not sure that's true. If you're inept enough for long enough I think eventually people start to rally around you as the "lovable losers" everyone finally wants to get over the hump. I'd think there would be a lot of average NFL fans (outside of Pittsburgh and Cleveland) who would actively root for the Bengals to finally win a playoff game simply because it's been so long.

Look at the Chicago Cubs, or the Boston Red Sox in baseball. Both teams had long postseason droughts and I remember droves of people rooting for them (up to the point that finally succeeded and the fanbases became insufferable). Hell, look at the Cleveland Browns right now, a team so incapable over the last decade plus that they're probably getting as much national coverage as anybody just because they *might* be good.

We've never seen that kind of attention towards the Bengals even in 2015 when they were really good. It has struck me as odd at times. I'd imagine most of ESPN's primary audience wasn't even alive the last time the Bengals won a playoff game, and I'm surprised people don't root for them solely because of that.

It is an interesting case and I don't know there is just 1 simple answer. Some thoughts:

MB frequently shows up on lists of worst owners in sports too. Kind of like the Clippers...except they are in a much bigger market. That may be some of it.

Going the whole route of drafting and signing guys with red flags/suspensions/arrests hurt our perception and actually made us get labelled dirty. (When you and I both know the Steelers players are just as dirty.)

It is weird to some extent. We generally have good players at skill positions from Pickens to Dillon to Chad Johnson to AJ Green to Joe Mixon. Those guys should be super marketable.

I do think the Steelers overshadow us.

I've read that the Browns are very popular around America now. Puzzling. They won 0 games a couple years ago. Their uniforms and helmet are generic. I don't get it.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-08-2019, 12:14 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Dalton has had three losing seasons in his eight year career. He has had three straight losing seasons. Matt Ryan has had three losing seasons in 11 years with multiple playoff wins and a SB appearance. Cam has had five losing seasons in eight seasons, but this is the issue with judging QBs based off of wins alone. Cam isn’t the reason they are losing all of those games, nor is he he reason why they are winning all those games. You can’t do it alone in football. The same goes for Dalton. Dalton is a fine QB, and I do like him and think Cincinnati can have success with him.

While I wouldn’t say Dalton alone has been the reason Cincinnati has lost in the playoffs, he has put up stinkers in every game. He gets credit for leading Cincinnati there, but he has hasn’t delivered in the playoffs. If he can do that, the respect will come.

The playoff losses don't go on any 1 player. Our defense has been fairly bad in a lot of those games.

The weird thing with the playoff losses, is units that were the strength of the team would play bad in the playoffs. It was odd.

People blame not having Dalton for the Steelers loss, but the Steelers didn't have Bell and had guys off the street at RB and they still rushed for a lot of yards against us.

[NKURyan]

(05-08-2019, 01:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It is an interesting case and I don't know there is just 1 simple answer. Some thoughts:

MB frequently shows up on lists of worst owners in sports too. Kind of like the Clippers...except they are in a much bigger market. That may be some of it.

Going the whole route of drafting and signing guys with red flags/suspensions/arrests hurt our perception and actually made us get labelled dirty. (When you and I both know the Steelers players are just as dirty.)

It is weird to some extent. We generally have good players at skill positions from Pickens to Dillon to Chad Johnson to AJ Green to Joe Mixon. Those guys should be super marketable.

I do think the Steelers overshadow us.

I've read that the Browns are very popular around America now. Puzzling. They won 0 games a couple years ago. Their uniforms and helmet are generic. I don't get it.

I'm pretty sure it's market size more than anything.

[KillerGoose]

(05-08-2019, 01:16 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: The playoff losses don't go on any 1 player. Our defense has been fairly bad in a lot of those games.

The weird thing with the playoff losses, is units that were the strength of the team would play bad in the playoffs. It was odd.

People blame not having Dalton for the Steelers loss, but the Steelers didn't have Bell and had guys off the street at RB and they still rushed for a lot of yards against us.

That’s kind of my whole point. Wins and losses don’t fall on any one player. Football is a team sport. However, there is a valid point about Dalton in the playoffs. He has, flat out, sucked in every single game. That doesn’t mean the losses are 100% on him and I’m not arguing that, but he has certainly been part of the reason. This is where the “Bengals can’t win with Dalton/need to move on” idea comes from.

[jj22]

(05-08-2019, 02:02 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: That’s kind of my whole point. Wins and losses don’t fall on any one player. Football is a team sport. However, there is a valid point about Dalton in the playoffs. He has, flat out, sucked in every single game. That doesn’t mean the losses are 100% on him and I’m not arguing that, but he has certainly been part of the reason. This is where the “Bengals can’t win with Dalton/need to move on” idea comes from.

I agree, that is where it comes from. I'm arguing what about all the media darling qb's who can't even get their teams to the playoffs to flat out suck. Was Dalton better of going 0-1 in 8 years in the playoffs, with one winning season?

Seems good enough for other teams to keep their qb's.

I think the more the media wants Dalton gone, the more (longer) MB will dig in and keep him. Media should focus on other qb's with far worse records instead of rewarding them with positive press because they've never made the playoffs to show if they would suck or not.

[J24]

Dalton best season was cut down to injury in 15 when he would have had 30+ TDs and over 4,000 yards if he remained healthy. Also Andy best Two receiving options have only played 9 games together since 2015 and since the 2016 season he has lost his best two Offensive Lineman Zeitler and Whit.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-08-2019, 12:14 PM)KillerGoose Wrote: Dalton has had three losing seasons in his eight year career. He has had three straight losing seasons. Matt Ryan has had three losing seasons in 11 years with multiple playoff wins and a SB appearance. Cam has had five losing seasons in eight seasons, but this is the issue with judging QBs based off of wins alone. Cam isn’t the reason they are losing all of those games, nor is he he reason why they are winning all those games. You can’t do it alone in football. The same goes for Dalton. Dalton is a fine QB, and I do like him and think Cincinnati can have success with him.

While I wouldn’t say Dalton alone has been the reason Cincinnati has lost in the playoffs, he has put up stinkers in every game. He gets credit for leading Cincinnati there, but he has hasn’t delivered in the playoffs. If he can do that, the respect will come.

I tend to think that IF you put Cam Newton here via the draft with AJ Green, Mixon, Boyd, Sanu, Jones, Bernard, Eifert...and the years we had Whitworth and a good line...that this offense would have been lethal.

We had a good defense too most of those years.

Put Dalton on Carolina without a #1 WR and they probably would have replaced him by now.

[jj22]

I don't know. They had Steve Smith Jr. From 2011- till when? And they certainly had the better run game and equally strong defense those first 4 years of Cams career.

They might not had a number 2 receiver, but neither did Dalton really until 2013.

[fredtoast]

(05-08-2019, 04:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I tend to think that IF you put Cam Newton here via the draft with AJ Green, Mixon, Boyd, Sanu, Jones, Bernard, Eifert...and the years we had Whitworth and a good line...that this offense would have been lethal.

We had a good defense too most of those years.

Put Dalton on Carolina without a #1 WR and they probably would have replaced him by now.

This is ridiculous.  Look at who Cam has had on his O-line

Jordan Gross...…….All-Pro, 3X Pro Bowl
Ryan Kalil…….……..All-Pro, 5X Pro Bowl
Andrew Norwell.....All-Pro, Pro Bowl
Trai Turner...……...4X Pro Bowl
Matt Kalil…………….Pro Bowl

Newton had All Pro Steve Smith as his #1 WR his first two seasons, and then he had one of the best TEs in the league in Greg Olson.  Compare Olsen's production for '14-'16 (241 rec, 3185 yds, 16 td) to AJ's (221 rec, 3302 yds, 20 tds) and there isn't much difference.

Cam has also had Pro Bowl RBs DeAngelo Williams and Jonathan Stewart.

Dalton would have had a lot more success behind the O-lines that Cam has had in Carolina.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-08-2019, 10:28 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote:  I'd say, anecdotally that we have one of the smallest fan bases in the NFL too.

I'm not so sure about that.  I'm significantly larger than the average fan.  

[Fan_in_Kettering]

Andy Dalton is custom made to run the new Zac Attack offense.

[SunsetBengal]

(05-08-2019, 07:04 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: Andy Dalton is custom made to run the new Zac Attack offense.

It'll be strange at first, watching a Bengals team that doesn't take it's foot off the gas after a couple quick scores.  We haven't experienced that since Coach Wyche was in charge.