Mike says Dalton should "re-establish himself" but FO needs to establish themselves

[Whatever]

(05-10-2019, 11:58 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I said holding his FO to the level of accountability as players and coaches -- not just the owner holding himself accountable. Clearly he's not going to fire himself. But It's crazy to go out and fire most of the coaches and not one single FO member is held accountable like they had 0 to do with it. Clearly accountability is not everywhere, but it is in most thriving or successful businesses. You don't perform, you're gone. 

He won't fire himself, his daughter, or his son in law.  Duke Tobin is the top non family member, so should he be canned?  Jim Lippincott has been gone since '11.  They've added a few more scouts and have had some retire, but they also rely heavily on the coaching staff for scouting.  When coaches bang their fists on the table for guys who turn out to be busts, they get canned.

I have never been in a job or career where everyone was held accountable.  There have always been the wives/husbands/kids/friends of managers/owners who pretty much did what they wanted, when they wanted without repercussion.  I've never seen a salesperson get fired, because companies are always scared to death that they will take the customers who they've built relationships with to competitors. 

[OSUfan]

(05-10-2019, 08:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The Bengals are a family business. They're one of the only owners in the league that didn't become billionaires doing something else. The Bengals ARE their business, and unfortunately I think they view this team more as a business than anything else. Not saying that other owners aren't in it for money, but for many of them, owning a team is almost like a hobby...and many of them understand the "serving the public" aspect of owning a sports franchise. 

Mike couldn't give a rip about the fans or their perception of him. 

Seems that your outside looking perspective of Mike Brown is far different that the inside looking out perspective of most anyone that I have heard talk about Mike Brown and know him on a personal level. It is just that he chooses not to lash out toward the uninformed who do not actually know him.

[Sled21]

(05-09-2019, 05:08 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The coaches develop the crap that the front office gives them.  Talent wise the '09 and '11 teams were near the bottom of the league.  It was only because of the coaching that we made the playoffs.

Kind of funny how the front office was by far the absolute worst in the league for over a decade, but stopped being a losing team as soon as Marvin arrived and developed into a consistent winner.  How do you explain that if coaching was the problem?

I'm not one of the "Marvin was a horrible coach" crowd, but Marvin DID have a problem getting the teams ready for primetime, let alone playoff games, and there is no denying that.

[*Nately120*]

(05-11-2019, 08:44 AM)OSUfan Wrote: Seems that your outside looking perspective of Mike Brown is far different that the inside looking out perspective of most anyone that I have heard talk about Mike Brown and know him on a personal level. It is just that he chooses not to lash out toward the uninformed who do not actually know him.

That pretty much sums things up.  The Mike Brown way benefits his friends and family and not people who only relate to him via the Bengals.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement of the guy.

[OSUfan]

(05-11-2019, 09:19 AM)Nately120 Wrote: That pretty much sums things up.  The Mike Brown way benefits his friends and family and not people who only relate to him via the Bengals.  That's hardly a ringing endorsement of the guy.

LMAO....wow that was a politician worthy spin job of my statement. Not at all what I said so let's unspin your translation. According to most everyone I have heard speak of Mike Brown, that actually know him on a persona level, give a far different take of the man than those who stand on the outside assuming they know something about him. Virtually everyone I have heard speak that actually know him tell of a guy that dearly wants to win and loves the game and cares about having a successful franchise in Cincinnati. When fans lash out at him he chooses not to have a media feud with them rather just allows them to state their generally misinformed opinions.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(05-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Whatever Wrote: I have never been in a job or career where everyone was held accountable.  There have always been the wives/husbands/kids/friends of managers/owners who pretty much did what they wanted, when they wanted without repercussion.  I've never seen a salesperson get fired, because companies are always scared to death that they will take the customers who they've built relationships with to competitors. 

This is usually the case with a small company - you can get away with it. But large companies fail when they act in this manner. What saves Mikey is the NFL itself. Guaranteed income and a guaranteed cap on the largest expense. 

If Mikey owned a team in a pro league with no or minimal revenue sharing/salary cap, say he owned the Reds, the team would be in last place forever.

[OSUfan]

(05-11-2019, 09:29 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: This is usually the case with a small company - you can get away with it. But large companies fail when they act in this manner. What saves Mikey is the NFL itself. Guaranteed income and a guaranteed cap on the largest expense. 

If Mikey owned a team in a pro league with no or minimal revenue sharing/salary cap, say he owned the Reds, the team would be in last place forever.

The set up of the NFL is what keeps it as successful as it is period. It is a system that benefits every single team.

[*Nately120*]

(05-11-2019, 09:28 AM)OSUfan Wrote: LMAO....wow that was a politician worthy spin job of my statement. Not at all what I said so let's unspin your translation. According to most everyone I have heard speak of Mike Brown, that actually know him on a persona level, give a far different take of the man than those who stand on the outside assuming they know something about him. Virtually everyone I have heard speak that actually know him tell of a guy that dearly wants to win and loves the game and cares about having a successful franchise in Cincinnati. When fans lash out at him he chooses not to have a media feud with them rather just allows them to state their generally misinformed opinions.

How dare I use nearly 30 years of poor job performance as a metric to judge a man's dedication when I could have just asked you what people who know the guy think.  My mistake.

[fredtoast]

(05-10-2019, 07:50 PM)bfine32 Wrote: You just kinda say things don't you?

Nobody said Ben and Brady are good QBs because of these draft picks. 

You are 100% correct.  I misread the original post.  I thouight you said that no one could blame Dalton because he had never been challenged, that is to say he would have been better if he had been challenged.

But the picks you mentioned by the Pats and Steelers were never meant to challenge the starters.  Those teams just ahd deeper rosters and could afford to use a high draft pick on a QB they thought was a good value.  The #2 QB position is a lot more important than a lot of people around here think.  The 2015 Steelers just barely got into the playoffs and they would not have made it without MIke Vick winning some games for them.

[Hoofhearted]

(05-11-2019, 01:49 AM)Whatever Wrote: He won't fire himself, his daughter, or his son in law.  Duke Tobin is the top non family member, so should he be canned?  Jim Lippincott has been gone since '11.  They've added a few more scouts and have had some retire, but they also rely heavily on the coaching staff for scouting.  When coaches bang their fists on the table for guys who turn out to be busts, they get canned.

I have never been in a job or career where everyone was held accountable.  There have always been the wives/husbands/kids/friends of managers/owners who pretty much did what they wanted, when they wanted without repercussion.  I've never seen a salesperson get fired, because companies are always scared to death that they will take the customers who they've built relationships with to competitors. 

I’m not arguing if it happens. I’m saying it’s wrong regardless of if it happens or not

[Bengalitis]

(05-10-2019, 11:28 AM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: I think Mike Brown meant well with respect to his comments about Andy Dalton but it was certainly a poor choice of words.  Let’s not forget Mike keys on quarterback play ever since he played that position himself at Dartmouth and let’s also not forget he gave away almost an entire draft for Akili Smith decades ago.  I’m honestly not sure he understands play in the trenches at all — but his father sure did.

I think the choice of words is basically saying this:

Zac wants his own QB (whether by draft or trade) but MB overruled it and decided to keep Andy till the end of his contract. To appease Zac, he told  Andy, win a playoff game and/or beyond and we'll keep you. If not, Zac gets his QB. We all know Zac is here for another long haul. Minimum 5 yrs.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2019, 11:17 AM)Bengalitis Wrote: I think the choice of words is basically saying this:

Zac wants his own QB (whether by draft or trade) but MB overruled it and decided to keep Andy till the end of his contract. To appease Zac, he told  Andy, win a playoff game and/or beyond and we'll keep you. If not, Zac gets his QB.

No.  Here is what he was saying.

Zac loves Dalton so much that he has told Mike he was so impressed with Dalton that there was no need to use a high draft pick or free agent money for a replacement.  So since they are putting all their faith in Dalton he has to re-establish himself in order for the Bengals to succeed.

Make believe is fun.

(05-11-2019, 11:17 AM)Bengalitis Wrote:  We all know Zac is here for another long haul. Minimum 5 yrs.

Who is this "we all" of which you speak?  The last coach before Lewis only got 2 seasons.

[Bengalitis]

(05-11-2019, 11:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  Here is what he was saying.

Zac loves Dalton so much that he has told Mike he was so impressed with Dalton that there was no need to use a high draft pick or free agent money for a replacement.  So since they are putting all their faith in Dalton he has to re-establish himself in order for the Bengals to succeed.

Make believe is fun.



Who is this "we all" of which you speak?  The last coach before Lewis only got 2 seasons.

Chances of Zac being here less than 5 are very small. Having to hire more than 1 coach is no easy task.  I think that's also part of why we kept Marvin for so long.

[fredtoast]

(05-11-2019, 12:12 PM)Bengalitis Wrote: Chances of Zac being here less than 5 are very small. Having to hire more than 1 coach is no easy task.  I think that's also part of why we kept Marvin for so long.

Marvin was here 16 years, but he got fired the first time he had more than 2 losing seasons in a row.  Before that LeBeau only got two full seasons.

If Zac does not win he won't be here more than 3 years.  That would be 6 straight losing seasons.

[Shake n Blake]

(05-11-2019, 08:44 AM)OSUfan Wrote: Seems that your outside looking perspective of Mike Brown is far different that the inside looking out perspective of most anyone that I have heard talk about Mike Brown and know him on a personal level. It is just that he chooses not to lash out toward the uninformed who do not actually know him.

I'm basing my opinion on his actions, which speak much louder than the words of his friends and associates.

[Bengalitis]

(05-09-2019, 04:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: There's plenty of scapegoats. Mike Brown. Injuries. Eifert being injured. Rookie coaches.

True, I wouldn't mind Andy being the next scapegoat, eventhough I like him as our QB. I'm getting old and older and I want to win now. If we have to get an UDFA QB to get us to win a playoff game and get us to the next level, then so be it.

Also, I think with Burfict gone, we will see a better Defense. Everytime he came back from an injury/suspension the D went downhill for some reason.

[I_C_DeadPeople]

(05-11-2019, 09:34 AM)OSUfan Wrote: The set up of the NFL is what keeps it as successful as it is period. It is a system that benefits every single team.

While it benefits every team, not every team provides the same benefit to the league. The Bengals provide nothing to the league, they just suck of the teat so to speak.  

[Whatever]

(05-11-2019, 09:29 AM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: This is usually the case with a small company - you can get away with it. But large companies fail when they act in this manner. What saves Mikey is the NFL itself. Guaranteed income and a guaranteed cap on the largest expense. 

If Mikey owned a team in a pro league with no or minimal revenue sharing/salary cap, say he owned the Reds, the team would be in last place forever.

I've seen it happen in huge nationwide companies, too.  One supervisor or manager can always pass the blame for their underachieving buddy off on someone else in their department to their boss, particularly as long as their department meets goals on the whole.  

In any case, does anybody really think the janitors at Apple are doing an extra thorough job scrubbing the toilets because they were the most profitable US company last year?

[THE PISTONS]

(05-11-2019, 12:44 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'm basing my opinion on his actions, which speak much louder than the words of his friends and associates.

Oh...we've heard what guys like Palmer, Pickens, Dillon, and some others thought of the way the Bengals were managed. Recently Whitworth had some things to say. We saw that Zeitler was lowballed if the articles were right. So not all inside opinions are positive.

But, he does reward a lot of players. Atkins, Green, Dalton, Dunlap, etc.

The indisputable evidence of ineptness is: We've also saw that since we've last won a playoff game we know that EVERY single team in the NFL has won one. All but like 4-5 teams have won 5+ over that time. We also know that the Bengals don't use free agency and value comp picks. I think all of those thoughts show that we aren't managed like the average NFL Team. The only possible counter to this argument is to say that winning playoff games isn't important, which is ridiculous.

I'm fairly sure that Mike Brown is a caring person He probably is a great family guy. He probably has a lot of great qualities.

But, as far as owning a team...when the goal is to win a championship...he's the worst.

[THE PISTONS]

(05-10-2019, 08:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yep. The ownership establishes a culture. They hire the right guys that fit the culture and permeate it through the entire building. Our problem is that even if Zac Taylor is the 2nd coming of Belichick, it will mean nothing if this front office isn't doing 100% everything physically possible to help him achieve success. 

That's why I was so disappointed in this free agency. We had all this talk about a "new dey", but the front office didn't change their approach. We're still picking through scraps and worrying about compensatory picks. We'll probably also remain the only team in the league that handles contracts the way we do (minimizing guaranteed money) which is great for limiting dead money, but also limits the types of players we can sign.

This FO doesn't seem willing to change themselves. 

As far as managements commitment to winning...which NFL Teams would allow a coach that was 0-7 in the playoffs 3 more years to try to win one?

Yeah...only 1. In most cities, if you don't win a playoff game in 3-4-5 years...they fire you.

In Cincy, you make the playoffs and lose and they write articles on the main team website about how they have developed a model that other teams will copy.